Guest post: Why gay pride is not about ghettoising ourselves

Published: July 17, 2009 at 8:05pm

gaypride

This post was written by a young man man in response to what I wrote about Gay Pride. It is anonymous only because he works for a media organisation and the terms of his employment do not permit him to use his by-line elsewhere.

Daphne

Gay pride is the opposite of gay shame. Just as a man and a woman who love each other should have no shame in walking down the street holding hands or hugging each other tenderly, no two men or two women who love each other should feel shame either.

But do they?

Yes and no. In some circles, even in Malta, being gay is no different than being straight. Many people from various social upbringings see homosexuality as something completely normal and acceptable. This is good. But in most circles, this is not the reality and the truth is that there are many gay men and women who live in constant fear because of the negative attitudes their families, friends, colleagues, neighbours or peers have of homosexuality. Suicide is very common in gay teens and depression even more so.

But how does walking down a street with colourful flags help?

It doesn’t. Not to the young boy who has just been beaten up by his father for playing with Barbie or to the lesbian who was abandoned by her friends when she told them she likes girls.

But it does make a difference in the whole context of things.

If it were not for gay activism around the world no gay people would allowed to be married, homosexuality would still be a crime punishable by death (like it is in over 70 countries of the world still), gay people would still have to live in their closets and get married to people of the opposite sex to mask their true selves, and lots of unhappiness would prevail.

Life is all about the pursuit of happiness. And that is what gay pride is about too. It is not about bullying politicians, but showing politicians that gay people are still lacking some rights that are important to them and that block their chance at happiness.

It is about showing other gay people that they do not have to hide who they are.

It’s also about commemorating all the work done by those gay and lesbian activists in the past who were tortured, killed, hurt or threatened to get to where we are today.

And it’s about keeping hope alive that tomorrow will be even better.

Some people say gay people have all the rights they need so they should just shut up and be happy. This is proof of how much work there is left to do and how oblivious many people are to the problems that some gay and lesbian face everyday.

Gay pride is not about ghettoising ourselves. But it is about presenting ourselves as a group of individuals who are still discriminated against, not just by other people but also by the government and other institutions that should be leading by example.

We do not want special rights and we do not want to be defined solely by our sexuality. But we also do not want anyone or anything to compromise our right to happiness unjustly. And we know that if we remain silent the status quo will never change.




81 Comments Comment

  1. H.P. Baxxter says:

    “gay people are still lacking some rights that are important to them”

    I want a full list, please.

    • Marc Antony says:

      I can think of one off the top of my head – marriage.

      [Daphne – Nobody can marry somebody of the same gender, not just homosexuals. There is no such thing as the right to marry somebody you love. There is only the right to marry, and that right is qualified. So there is patently no discrimination there. This is not a ‘moral’ observation, just a factual one.]

      • Marc Antony says:

        I’d say there is a fundamental right to marry the person of your choosing. And various countries do allow that right fully. Last year I returned from Canada after having been to a wedding between two female friends of my girlfriend. And most countries at least have some system of recognised union, civil partnerships being the most common. To my knowledge, Malta does not even legally recognise any such union.

        [Daphne – No, Malta doesn’t have the legal instrument for the recognition of civil unions between people of the same gender. And there is no such thing as a fundamental right to marry the person of your choosing. That is obviously impossible: the person you choose may not want to marry you/may be married already/etc.]

      • C Attard says:

        Exactly, just like the anti-miscegenation laws in the US until the sixties, right Daphne? It was not racist at all – it was all in their heads. A black person could not marry a white person, but a white person couldn’t marry a black person either! So what was all the fuss?

        [Daphne – You’re comparing apples with pears. The anti-miscegenation law was discriminatory because it discriminated WITHIN the category of men and women. There was a law which said that men could marry women, but then it sub-divided this into black men being permitted marriage to black women only and whites to whites. Like I said, I am not passing moral judgement here, but only pointing out that your arguments are weakened by lack of logical thinking or proper legal reasoning. Marriage law does not say that homosexuals are not allowed to marry: many of them in fact do marry. It simply says that men are not allowed to marry men and that women are not allowed to marry women, and does not enter into the merits of their sexuality. Hence, by continuing to argue for civil partnerships as a right on the basis of current discrimination, you are setting yourselves up for a fall. You’d meet with more success if you spoke about desires rather than rights.]

      • john says:

        In the 1980s, in Holland, a co-worker of mine divorced her husband and then married her female colleague – to which ceremony we went. A couple of years later we were invited to the baptism of their newborn child, the “wife” of the marriage having been artificially inseminated courtesy of the state health service. The funny thing is that these two women were radiographers who were specialised in, and only performed, mammograms. Their male colleagues, in order to avoid any possible hanky-panky, were assigned other (non-mammogram) duties.

        [Daphne – Funny you should mention that, John. I was recently subjected to a thorough investigation by a very butch dyke security officer at Frankfurt airport. They delegate women security officers to feel up the women, without taking into consideration the fact that rather a lot of them are quite obviously lesbians.]

      • Marc Antony says:

        Just because you have a right to marry whoever you wish does not mean that you can go out and take a bride or groom and stick them at the alter, in the same way that my right to own whatever property I wish doesn’t mean I can just go out and claim any building that pleases me, or my right to a barrister means I get one without paying, unless the case is a criminal one. The point being made is that if I want to marry someone, be it male or female, I should be allowed to. The state should not intervene because of my gender and theirs.

        [Daphne – The state has every right to intervene. After all, marriage is something conceived and administered by the state. What else do you think it is? It is the state regulation of unions. You can look at it the other way: all these people fighting for the ‘right’ to have the state interfere in their private relationship can be a little….absurd.]

      • john says:

        Better than being groped by P.C.Tyrrell, wouldn’t you say, “you stupid woman”?

        [Daphne – I don’t know why, but I get the feeling that “P C Tyrell” is not the sort to grope women, and it’s not because of his high moral standards, either. If anyone’s wondering what we’re on about, go to the last few comments beneath the post ‘Astrid’s toy soldiers’.]

      • Alex says:

        That’s a little academic, Daphne.

    • PSA says:

      Not being able to take paid leave when your partner is in hospital dying …an hetero married couple can.

      [Daphne – Where in heaven’s name did you come up with that? Anyone can take paid leave at any time, as long as you have your manager’s permission to do so. What you’re talking about is compassionate leave, and that is always discretionary. You really are scraping the bottom here, trying to come up with ‘rights’ of which you are deprived. Be serious, please.]

  2. Marc Ellul says:

    I’ve never written anything on this subject since I’m not versed in it in any way, but what I can say is the following. Once I was abroad and by chance I walked into what seemed to me a sort of Gay Pride event complete with floats, loud music and men and women wearing costumes with colours that scream at you.

    The atmosphere was seedy and repulsive, and frankly, the only statement that came out of this event was that homosexuality is all about debauchery and affront. Now I’m sure that there are gays out there who don’t subscribe to this kind of misrepresentation but this is how the gay community is projecting itself to the outside community, which in its great majority is heterosexual.

    Now, whether you like it or not, society is what it is and if gays really want to be taken seriously, somehow you have to change your formula and stop acting different to the rest. It is you who want acceptance from the hetero group and not vice-versa, as ultimately you are a product of this very same group.

    With so many gay men and women who made a name for themselves, why don’t you promote your cause differently and appeal to the mind instead of resorting to these outrageous methods, which frankly are having the opposite effect?

    • Marc Antony says:

      Now why on earth should a minority ever have to conform to the ways of a majority in society? Or is there not freedom in Malta?

      • Mark Ellul says:

        Universal freedom is only an idea and just like truth, it’s better left in the hands of the gods. The only thing I’m certain of though is that whichever way you decide to play there are rules to obey and someone has to pay.

  3. Josephine says:

    What I find strange is the church’s stance on all things gay, when I firmly believe that whilst a person’s sexuality may sometimes be influenced by the environment in which they were raised, others most certainly are simply born that way.

    I can think of at least two little girls who are aged six or younger, who absolutely hate anything “girly”, and who insist on dressing up in traditional male costumes – Batman, Ben 10, Spiderman, etc – come carnival.

    Likewise, I can already pinpoint at least two little boys of the same age with effeminate tendencies, one of whom yes, is keen on his sister’s Barbie dolls, much to his mother’s embarrassment. It’s just the way they were born, and certainly not due to their upbringing.

    Now is the church going to say that in cases where the sexual orientation of such very young children is already quite clear, that it would be evil of them to act upon it when they grow up? Would it not be more of a “crime” – in their case – to do what is perceived as the norm, when it certainly goes against the way they were born?

    • H.P. Baxxter says:

      1) Which “church”?
      2) The “church” bans lots of things, and yet that doesn’t stop most of its flock from enjoying them. Why do gays expect to be treated any differently?
      3) What, er “rights” do they expect to obtain from the “church”? If it’s the right to have sex outside marriage, they should know that all heterosexual couples, bar a few exceptions, have been doing that for ages.
      4) Now comes the bit they should read: just about the only form of legal discrimination they face is the ban on serving in the US military if they declare they’re homosexual. There is no such ban in the AFM, or in any of the European armed forces, so there you go.

    • sj says:

      “What I find strange is the church’s stance on all things gay…”

      Assuming that you are refering to the Catholic Church, here’s a suggested reading just to be better informed: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19861001_homosexual-persons_en.html

    • Lorna says:

      I adored boys’ stuff when I was a girl and I played with my cousins’ boy-toys – but I can assure you, I’m heterosexual and with puberty I became as feminine as could be. So, the mere fact that children play with other children’s toys or look effeminate does not make them gay. Let’s not start labelling children from the age of 6!

    • Nadine says:

      …”hate anything “girly”, and who insist on dressing up in traditional male costumes – Batman, Ben 10, Spiderman, etc” – surely this does not imply that a girl will grow up to be a lesbian (!)

  4. Manuel says:

    @Josephine. Just because one is born with certain feelings does not mean one may freely act upon them. For example, many individuals who are universally deemed perverts may have been born that way: that does not that translating those feelings into action is, or should be, acceptable.

    [Daphne – Oh come on, surely you are not equating paedophilia to homosexuality. And while homosexuals are born, paedophiles are made.]

    • Manuel says:

      No I’m not equating the two. I’m only contesting the notion that because feelings are congenital, it’s acceptable to act upon them.

    • Josephine says:

      Manuel, as Daphne pointed out, paedophelia and homosexuality cannot be put into the same category. My point was that the Roman Catholic Church condemns gays. Wasn’t there a recent furore about a booklet on sale in some churches? What would it prefer gay men to do, for example? Conform to the accepted norm and marry someone of the opposite sex? Or maybe they would be more accepted by the church if they were to shun their natural inclinations and become priests? And for how long would they shun those inclinations, anyway? Now I’ll just sit back and wait for the Jacqueline Bs of this world to come out bible-bashing.

      • Manuel says:

        Josephine, once again: no, I’m not stating or implying that the paedophilia and homosexuality are one and the same thing – or even closely related. The RC Church does not condemn gays; on the most basic level, it holds that all sex outside marriage, whether heterosexual or homosexual, is wrong. It certainly does not encourage gay people to marry or to join the priesthood, but to live chastely, as all Christians should.

      • Milone says:

        There’s rather too much fuss about sex and too little fuss about the really horrible goings on.

  5. mat555 says:

    Why did the post with the song Tort ta’ Min vanish?

    [Daphne – I deleted it, because I found out that the girl is only 17 and I felt bad about it.]

  6. I have boys, and one of them used to play with dolls. I also know men who, as young boys, played with dolls. None of them turned out to be gay. Neither are they particularly sensitive or effeminate.

    There were also a couple of little girls who were rough, played tough, enjoyed playing with the boys (and bullied them) wouldn’t be seen dead with a doll – in fact the doll my son used to play with was hers – and they grew up to be the usual girly girl.

    • Josephine says:

      It’s true that you can’t generalise, but certain pointers are sometimes there from a very early age – even in a little boy’s very girly walk and mannerisms, for example.

  7. Jenny says:

    What has happened to Charlene Victoria Mula?

    [Daphne – I deleted the post.]

  8. C Attard says:

    It seems that a lot of people who say that Gay Pride parades actually harm the cause have never been to a gay MARCH in Malta. What happens at a gay parade in Amsterdam, San Francisco or London is completely different to what happens at a gay march in Malta. There is, yes, celebration, but certainly no nudity. It’s a very ordinary affair, and that’s why perhaps a lot of gays don’t bother to come: it’s just not fun enough for them. Unfortunately these people can’t see beyond their noses.

    And for those who still claim gays are not discriminated against, let me just point out what’s just happened in Lithuania, another EU member state. The parliament there has just voted overwhelmingly to pass a law punishing anyone who ‘propagates’ homosexuality or polygamy. all of this in the name of ‘protecting children’. And what about those children who, like me, when they were in their early teens, could find absolutely no positive information on gay issues? Most people have no idea how horrible it is to be growing up and discovering who you are and yet all the information you’re coming across tells you you’re turning into some kind of monster who’s bound to be promiscuous, contract AIDS and die.

    The gay march this evening is also about making sure something like this never happens in Malta. That’s why even in countries where full legal equality has been achieved, gay pride marches/parades will still be held, if anything to show solidarity with gays in other countries.

    • H.P. Baxxter says:

      What on earth is “positive information”?

      And what the hell are you on about here: ” all the information you’re coming across tells you you’re turning into some kind of monster who’s bound to be promiscuous, contract AIDS and die.”

      I grew up in the 1980s, and I think I might be older than you, and yet I never came across such information.

    • Andrea says:

      C.Attard,
      Hitting puberty is horrible for almost every boy or girl, regardless their sexual orientation. Mind you, even heterosexual teenager have to find out about their sexual identity. Also they are confronted with issues like AIDS (straight people die from AIDS as well), venereal diseases, pregnancy, abortion, bisexuality, even transsexuality, all kinds of inferiority complexes and so on. And it is not as if heterosexual people do not have to hide their sexual desires and obsessions or can marry the person they want to. Even straight people do not get all the support from family, friends or society. I do not want to belittle your gay liberation activities but please put certain things into perspective.

  9. PSA says:

    The word PRIDE is being abused. I’m gay but I’m not proud to be gay… I’m proud to be me.

  10. Daphne Caruana Galizia says:

    Maybe tangas and feather boas would have been preferable to this lot.

    http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20090718/local/gay-pride-parade-held-in-valletta

  11. Andrea says:

    “There is nought so queer as folk”…or penguins.
    Harry and Pepper, the gay penguin couple, split up:
    http://blog.spreadshirt.net/us/2009/07/17/cnn-headline-t-shirt-gay-penquins-split/

    And before anyone starts picking at me: I just a had a laugh on that story with my ‘gayer than gay’ male friend, who really acts like a drag queen and loves gay parades. He has to take all sorts of abuse from my side…and in return I get all those blonde jokes.

  12. Ronnie says:

    As long as Catholic teaching and dogma keep influencing the laws of Malta, I see little hope for increasing rights for gay individuals.

    Catholic teaching says that divorce is wrong therefore there is no divorce in Malta. Catholic teachings also tells us that homosexuality is wrong and deviant therefore we pretend that gay people do not exist in Malta. Being gay in Malta is OK as long as it is kept hushed up and the person does not attend public functions and appear in public with his/her same sex partner. A clear example is the number of gay politicians and public persons who keep their sexuality secret throughout their career.

    [Daphne – You’re very much behind the times. The usual US Embassy 4th of July party at the Hilton was hosted by a gay couple – two men who have an adopted child – and everyone who is anyone in Malta accepted their invitation, including the president of the republic, who addressed the gathering alongside them. That is just one example, but the most high profile one I can think of before my breakfast.]

    I see little hope for increased rights for gay individuals especially as long as the country is ruled by the very conservative PN. The only solution in my opinion is to have a clearly secular state who legislates for all citizens and not only for Catholics.

    • WhoamI? says:

      Ronnie, issa jinbidel kollox jekk xi darba jkun hemm il-Progressivi fil gvern… ghadek ma ndunajtx li m’ghandekx ghazla fejn tidhol politika? Taqra fejn taqra, hlief tizzeffen fin-nofs il-politika ma naghmlux. There there two types of politics – politics in the sense of policy-making, and politika partiggjana. Ahna politika partiggjana biss ghandna (jew dik biss nafu).

      • Ronnie says:

        Stating that increased gay rights was unlikely under a PN Government was not meant as a criticism, but was rather an observation. I can already imagine Gonzi, Tonio Borg and Jason Azzopardi addressing the press to announce the introduction of legislation for civil unions amongst gay couples – it is as far-fetched as expecting support for illegal immigration from Norman Lowell.

        What I mean here is that the PN stand on divorce, gay rights, censorship and a host of other issues is not a partisan stand aimed at attracting votes, but rather one of conviction. Many within the PN truly believe that enactment of such laws will weaken Malta’s moral fibre.

    • Ronnie says:

      I guess as long as they are not Maltese it’s OK. Can you name one openly gay politician? Unlikely!

      [Daphne – What this tells me is not that Maltese heterosexuals are intolerant but that Maltese homosexuals tend to be gutless cowards who are not so much scared of what others will think, as of telling their mothers. Little do they realise that mothers are usually the first to pick it up.]

      Although there area a number of politicians who are known to be gay, and none will admit being so openly.

      [Daphne – Why the hell should they? ‘Hi, I’m Joe, and I’m the only gay in the house.’ Honestly.]

      • Ronnie says:

        What I mean is openly admit that one is gay not by walking into parliament sporting a pink boa but by speaking of one’s own same sex partner in same manner heterosexual politicians speak about their partners and by being seen in public with their partners.

        [Daphne – My friends have always done that, and everyone takes them for granted. We obviously don’t know the same people – and don’t make me specify GAY people, because I won’t.]

  13. KVZTABONA says:

    WHAT ABOUT THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE?
    To a certain extent everyone determines his or her own life. Everyone, gay or straight, rich or poor, brilliant or asinine makes choices.

    The right to make choices is what gay people want and in a country like Malta where our social laws are tailor-made to fit the precepts of the Vatican, this does not exist.

    [Daphne – ‘The right to choose’? Since when is a partner a bar of chocolate or a washing machine? Prospective partners have free will, and they’ve got to reciprocate. If he does, there’s nothing to stop you choosing him.]

    Many of you pointed out that the same could be said by many others and you are spot on. The riposte of the church to the TPPI report about divorce is a case in point and like we had with the bioethics issue we had the Archbishop’s Curia dictating to the government.

    I sometimes think that we would have done away with a whole load of hypocrisy had we given the presidency to the archbishop for indeed in many aspects of its social law Malta is merely a branch of the Vatican.

    As you all should be aware, because of the humongous compensations the Church has had to pay out because of paedophile crimes; this particular pope, even when he was cardinal and head of doctrine, was known as God’s rottweiler because of the rabidly cruel things he said about homosexuals and homosexuality. Things like the fatwa he issues about homosexuals being “intrinsically evil”.

    [Daphne – Kenneth, we have to move on here. The Catholic Church is never going to come round to a favourable outlook on homosexuality. Ditto divorce. Those who don’t like what the Catholic Church says are wrong to stay in the Catholic Church and do battle. They should just leave and live their lives as they please. Yes, the problem is the Catholic Church’s influence on many people here in Malta, but that has long since waned and will continue to wane. You have pockets of people who are very much influenced – all those prayer group obsessives we know, for instance – but then there are others who don’t care at all. Also, you might be surprised to know that it is people in their teens and early 20s who are very much against divorce. This is because they are still young enough to be thinking in terms of ‘I would hate it if my parents were to divorce.’]

    Only last Christmas he declared that the ‘normal’ world must be protected in the same way the rain forest should be from people like myself. After the inevitable brouhaha it was announced by the Vatican that HH had been misunderstood.

    Therefore when political parties keep hiding under ecclesiastical petticoats on issues that affect all of us, not only gay people like myself, but all those whose marriage has broken down irretrievably and all those who wish to marry again and all those unable to have a child without IVF and many others it is very difficult for people like myself who have not had a free choice in life to keep quiet.

    [Daphne – Kenneth, you did have a free choice in life and you chose to keep quiet about being gay until you were in your late 40s. If you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem. I had no problem dumping all that religious stuff once and for all when I was 21 and avoiding a life of pretence and hypocrisy. You could have done the same, but chose not to. Now you can’t accuse others of hypocrisy. So all right, better late than never, but really, come on. Don’t blame the world and Maltese society in general. Just blame your own upbringing, which made you afraid to be who you are until half your life had gone by. It’s not fair to project blame onto those who really are not responsible. Yes, it is very, very much easier for homosexuals to be honest about their sexuality now – no bones about that – but at some point we have to stop blaming all and sundry and just concentrate on where we went wrong.]

    Even today participating in Gay Pride March as I did this morning givens me heeby-jeebies; simply because of the way I was nurtured and educated. It has taken decades for me to overcome the fear of being judged by society and my peers. Nobody knows or understands how difficult being gay was in the 1970s and 1980s in Malta. Many of us left the rock never to come back.
    Circumstances dictated that I stayed and for years I was closeted.

    [Daphne – You thought you were closeted, Kenneth, but even when you were at St Aloysius College your classmates knew you were gay. Everyone knew you were gay. What on earth were you thinking? It never occurred to anyone that you thought of yourself as being in the closet.]

    As Daphne pointed out in another post, when I did finally decide to ‘come out’ to my close friends the big shock and surprise was that despite my discretion they all knew and it was the realisation that the people who counted in my life never stopped loving me as much as loved them that decided me that I was not an intrinsically evil-doer nor a sexual deviant nor a person whom other people shun for in reality the truth was quite the opposite, and I have been ULTRA BLESSED with my many many friend od all shapes sizes and description.

    [Daphne – There you go. See?]

    Because I have been frank about my sexuality in the media and I have come out possibly a trifle more publicly than most I have been a bit of an agony aunt for many young people who even today in this so called enlightened time agonisingly difficult to come out.

    Gay Pride in Malta is a declaration that there is a section of society that suffers discrimination according to law. That is the official stance.

    On the other hand Malta has developed a rather live and live attitude to the situation which is reflected in the relatively poor showing this morning when there appeared to be more politicos than gay people. However let me remind you that on the march there were many there whose lives have been blighted by incomprehension and lack of understanding.

    [Daphne – There are always going to be people whose lives have been blighted by incomprehension and lack of understanding. This is not the preserve of homosexuality. It’s the human condition.]

    It is true that as a gay person being there or not being there makes not one iota of difference to my own life or style. What my presence there meant to me was that I am showing solidarity with others who have not had it easy in life and who were beaten and rejected by their families and shunned by their peers because of an orientation that they did not choose.

    Gay Pride is a vindication of all that and at least in Malta where any exhibitionism is totally absent means that hiding in the closet is a thing of the past.

    • Ronnie says:

      Totally with Daphne here. Not only do I not expect the Catholic Church to change its teachings about divorce, homosexuality and a host of other issues, but I would find it very hypocritical of church to change its teaching now. What I do expect though is for a state to legislate free of interference and influence from any religion.

    • M. says:

      “Kenneth, you did have a free choice in life and you chose to keep quiet about being gay until you were in your late 40s.”

      “Keeping quiet”, when everyone put two and two together decades before is quite ridiculous, in any case.

      • M. says:

        I see that Daphne had already pointed out the same thing a couple of paragraphs further down in KZT’s comment. I never thought of KZT as ever having been “in the closet” – I had always taken it for granted that he was gay. And what difference would it have made to anyone, anyway?

  14. Anton Caruana Galizia says:

    I congratulate the anonymous blogger on the clarity of his argument, for which he has my full support.

    Good on you Daphne for giving him the space on your website.

    And yes, my girlfriend agrees with me.

    • Antoine Vella says:

      Anton, why do you have to keep reminding us that you have a girlfriend?

    • M. says:

      Is your way of feeling the need to state – at least twice that I can recall – that yes, your “girlfriend” agrees with you a way of reassuring the anyone in particular that you are straight. Nobody gives a damn, anyway!

  15. KVZTABONA says:

    Again, I will have to give up on this one. You insist on being Radamanthus in EVERYTHING. What’s wrong with you, Daphne?

    [Daphne – Nothing, Kenneth. I just don’t see eye to eye with you about the matter of the Valletta theatre and this other business about gays, closets and rights, that’s all. If I were gay, you can bet your last cent I wouldn’t be thinking about whether or not to ‘come out of the closet’ in my 40s. Maybe that’s what’s wrong with me: I really don’t give a stuff about what other people think and peer pressure has no effect on me at all.]

    • Libertas says:

      You would be surprised how many Maltese gays still want to be part of the Catholic Church that for centuries has been making life hell for gays.

      They seem unable to get over the fact that the Catholic Church will never ever change its stand against gay people, even though its convents and seminaries are full of gay people. They seem unable to realise that the Catholic Church, being so obviously wrong on homosexuality, is wrong on many other fundamental issues as well.

      But these gays cannot bring themselves to leave the Catholic Church and finally live in freedom from a manifestly vindictive and unjust institution. While continuously appealing for the Catholic Church to change, they keep that same church in the midst of an argument it should barely be in, least of all dominate (in Malta).

      It is like the perverse attraction of a victim to his/her bully. They want the Catholic Church to change when it is obvious that it is they who need to change.

      [Daphne – I believe it’s called a master-slave relationship. Incidentally, I can’t seem to get a clear answer from anyone as to whether the Catholic Church disapproves of lesbian relationships, given that no male reproductive organs/spilling of seed are involved. I can see why it would condemn male homosexuals relationships (two penises! all that seed going to waste!) but lesbians?]

      • Mark Ellul says:

        This is an interesting point. In fact I always wondered myself whether the rejection of gays is actually gender-driven (under the pretext that gender defines sexual orientation). A case in point is the fact that most men who condemn homosexuality do actually enjoy watching lesbian acts while women seem to get along much better with gay men. So, can one assert that part of the problem with the acceptance of gays in society is because it is considered as an affront to one’s sexuality? Could this also have a bearing on the apparent emphasis on male homosexuality by a male-dominated Catholic Church?

      • Andrea says:

        Women and even more lesbian women are just irrelevant to the male dominated Catholic Church. A waste, because they refuse to be bound to their traditional role as a woman and mother. I never understood why women support the Catholic Church since they play a minor part, anyway.

      • Pat says:

        This is ever so true, even in questions relating mainly to women. Look at the comments on yesterdays article on Sweden imposing an abortion legislation on Malta. Below is a summary of the names of the commenters, grouped according to gender.

        Male:
        Joseph Spiteri
        Joe Tabone-Adami
        Raymond Cachia
        Anthony Roberts
        Jimmy Magro
        john fenech
        lgalea (who else!)
        Robert Callus
        David Buttigieg
        Tony Caruana
        Leli Agius
        stephen farrugia
        Darby Allen
        kevin ellul-bonici
        Manuel Mangani
        brian crocker
        Moses Mula
        MARK MIFSUD BONNICI
        Anthony Formosa

        Female:
        Sylvana Zarb Darmanin

        Unknown:
        PM Camilleri
        M Pace
        K. Pullicino
        Tonna J.
        C. Farrugia
        J.Bonello
        v.pulis

        Even if every commenter with unknown gender was a woman, it would still leave a 5:2 ratio of male commenters.

      • Andrea says:

        @Pat
        I love that comment:
        -M Pace (23 hours, 34 minutes ago)
        The baby is using the woman’s body IT IS NOT PART of her body. A woman has no right to kill another human being, she should have taken precautions if she did not want a living human inside her body before the seed is implanted and not afterwards. THOU SHALL NOT KILL! –

        Even the babies are only using our bodies. Reminds me of the movie ‘Invasion of the Body Snatchers’: do not trust anyone, do not show emotion and do not fall asleep. Otherwise they’re gonna get you!

  16. Karl Flores (previously just Karl) says:

    I agree that Kenneth and anybody else like him still suffer from us k/a straight people. From where the word straight came from I never knew.

    [Daphne – Straight as opposed to bent, which is what homosexuals were called. Bent used to be considered offensive. Now it is used ironically.]

    It is beyond doubt that both the learned and unlearned, especially the uneducated, at times are very wicked in the way gays are treated. In point of fact I included myself with the straights because I know of the sufferings these gay people and their families have to go through. If I were Kenneth I wouldn’t disregard Daphne’s bold notes though.

    In another of Daphne’s commentaries somebody sarcastically asked her whether I was going to accompany Kenneth during the Saturday’s gay pride only because I described a ‘he’ as handsome, in another of my comments. I am sure the same person making the comment and who thought it to be a joke didn’t realise that it was not me he hurt but, I believe,Kenneth.

    I am 60+ years old now. Since childhood and up to the present day I was always hurt when people, young and old, described my uncle, Judge Josie Flores, as a homosexual as though he was some sort of criminal. Up to this day, when I am introduced to those who don’t know me, it is not the first time that I am asked, especially by elderly people , if I am gay too, ”biex fil- kaz naghti it-tirma”. The usual answer is that first of all I do not regret having an uncle who was said to be homosexual.

    I am also proud that he was a top lawyer and deputy leader to the M.L.P. in the 1950s. I am informed that he was made a judge by Mintoff not only because of his ability to preside over judicial matters but because Mintoff feared he would take his place as leader of the Labour Party because of his style, popularity and ability.

    He was also a top theologian and the one and only lawyer in Malta to win a case which was heard by the privy council in London when Maltese law allowed the person found guilty by Malta’s Appeals Courts to seek redress in the UK.

    And he never went on about gay pride even though gays were then considered the work of the devil and a scourge.

    Actually I wanted to reply to comments made by Josephine et al that say with certainty that homosexuals are born the way they are. As far as I know this is far from the truth as, to date, it hasn’t been found that any genes exist that produce same, unlike in the case of eye colour, or any other feature where single or polygenic genes determine the shape, type, etc.

    [Daphne – If you think about it, you’ll notice that homosexuality very clearly runs in families, which means that it is likely to have a genetic basis. This wouldn’t be obvious in large societies, but it is extremely obvious in a small place like Malta, where one has immediate knowledge of whole extended families – and, more to the point, where gay men and women marry, have children and those children turn out to be gay as well. You will almost never find just one homosexual in an extended family. And in others, you will find no homosexuals at all. Anyone who wishes to study family patterns of homosexuality should come to Malta and do it here. I know several families in which two siblings are homosexual, and what makes it interesting is that they aren’t even the same gender. And then there’s the man who my friends and I always assumed was gay when we were younger, but who married and had sons, and guess what, two of them are gay.]

    Effeminate boys are not necessarily gay, and I know many effeminate men who love women. I am quite sure that it is a mix of nature and nurture. Josephine wrote of parents who are embarrassed when their son plays with dolls. They would have communicated their embarrassment to him, and this might turn into a dislike of girls. I wouldn’t be surprised if it were to be found that homosexuality is hereditary after all.

    • john says:

      Why on earth should Kenneth, who I have known since his childhood, have been hurt? And seeing that you’re not hurt – well – just take the flippant inconsequential comment for what it is.

      Your uncle was a much respected man, “described”, as you say, “as a homosexual.” Unlike yourself, however, I have never heard this reference to him said in a way suggesting that “he was some sort of criminal.”

      • Karl Flores (previously Karl only) says:

        Hi John, I am very sorry that my writings could have irritated you. It was never my intention to do so. So please excuse me.

      • john says:

        A pleasure to have met you, Karl.

  17. david s says:

    @KZT
    “only last Christmas he (the Pope) declared that the “normal” world must be protected in the same way the rain forest should be from people like myself”

    I am indeed surprised that you believed this news item and did not verify it properly. I did. I actually found the original text in Italian, which was badly corrupted when translated into English by the media, including Sky News. Homosexuality was never even mentioned.
    And I am not here to defend Pope Benedict. But at least let’s be factual.

    It’s a known fact that Pope Benedict has been raiding all the papal paraphernalia preceding Vatican Council II, and very much enjoying it – have a look at his recent audience with Margaret Thatcher. He looked hideous.

    As for your attending the Malta Gay Pride march – oh come on, how passe. I have better things to do on a Saturday morning than a silly march. I wouldn’t want to be seen dead in such a stupid activity.

    Kenneth, you should make up for lost time and enjoy it! Go to Mardi Gras in Sydney or Madrid Pride for some good street parties. It’s a blast.

  18. Daphne Caruana Galizia says:

    It turns out that if you’re a man – gay or straight – you’ll get ahead faster than a woman in Malta (gay or straight).

    http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20090720/local/maltese-women-face-thickest-glass-ceiling-new-study-shows

    • Andrea says:

      Is that Germany, ranking between Hungary and Switzerland?
      Egad! How progressive we are. But it actually proves my perception.

  19. Anthony V. Falzon says:

    H.P. Baxxter says:
    Friday, 17 July at 2103hrs
    “gay people are still lacking some rights that are important to them”

    I want a full list, please.

    I doubt I can provide a “full list” but here is a partial list:

    1. The right not to be discriminated against in employment. This would apply to hiring, promotions, benefits and termination. And by right I mean just that. Having to rely on the good will, charity, genial disposition of an employer is by implication indicative of a lack of rights.

    [Daphne – You’ve already got it, sugar. It’s illegal to discriminate against people because of their sexuality.]

    2. The right not to be discriminated against in housing including rental and purchasing and applying for loans to purchase.

    [Daphne – You’re not discriminated against in these situations. Where did you get that idea?]

    3. The right not to be discriminated against in the provision of public services. Right to eat where one wishes, shop where one pleases etc.

    [Daphne – Are you feeling all right? Because you really are not making sense here.]
    4. The right to adopt children.

    [Daphne – No discrimination here, either. Single women can adopt, even if they are gay. No single men can adopt, whether they are gay or straight. No unmarried couples can adopt, whether gay or straight.]

    5. The right to contract a civil marriage/civil union with attendant rights under the tax code, civil code and inheritance code etc without having to set up specific legal arrangements that may or may not stand up in court when tested.

    [Daphne – Now we’re talking, except that it isn’t a right but a want.]

    6. The right to be involved in health care decisions affecting their partners and to have access to their partners in hospital despite any objections from the partner’s blood family or the hospital administration.

    [Daphne – Sigh. You’ve got that already. No parent or other family member can override or interfere in any decision taken by somebody who is over 18. So unless you are consorting with minors, your partner can tell his family to b****r off. Besides, there is no discrimination here either: you are in exactly the same situation as a heterosexual unmarried couple.]

    Get the picture?

    [Daphne – No. What I get is a lot of fuss about nothing and the failure of gay men (and some women) to see that they are not being discriminated against though they enjoy the sense of victimisation. Did you read the story in today’s The Times? Malta is the worst place to try getting ahead IF YOU ARE A WOMAN.]

    • H.P. Baxxter says:

      Number 5 is the only one that makes any sense. But “without having to set up specific legal arrangements”? What do you mean? Anything PACS-like IS a specific legal arrangement.

  20. Anthony V. Falzon says:

    @Daphne

    No.1 – Please don’t call me “sugar”. I don’t know you and you don’t know me. I wouldn’t dream of calling you “honey” or any other term that is meant to demean or patronise.

    [Daphne – All right, sir.]

    No. 2. – I do not doubt for a minute that Maltese women still have a way to go in terms of achieving full equality in practice even if they have it at law. Let’s not play at comparing apples with pears or who has the shorter end of the stick – women or gay people.

    [Daphne – Don’t be such a man. ‘Women or gay people’ – lots of women are gay people, and lots of gay people are women. And that’s why gay women are less likely to complain about being victimised because they’re gay. They have a tougher time because they’re women, at least in Malta.]

    That just detracts from the issue by minimizing the legitimacy of gay people’s expectations by trying to point out that another group that has been historically discriminated against may have it worse or just as bad as they do or in the case of lesbians have a real double whammy.

    [Daphne – Women are not ‘another group’ to homosexuals, unless you insist on taking the male-centric view. I’m sure you know plenty of lesbians. The problem here is that you (and, of course, thousands of others) insist on dividing the human race into gay and straight. I divide it into men and women, and then only when I really have to. Others might divide it into black and white. It all depends on where you’re coming from. As a gay man, you’re probably a lot better off than a straight woman in Malta – and this is not comparing apples and pears. You only see it that way because of the manner in which you mentally divide people up.]

    No. 3 – If it’s illegal to discriminate against people because of their sexuality in the EU it is still legal to do so in many places in the world. I thought that this was a discussion about global gay rights.

    [Daphne – No, actually it’s about Malta, where this blog is based and where most of its readers live. I think it’s pretty senseless to go for the global situation, anyway. Imagine if we did that with women, and claimed that women are victimised globally because some of them are burned and forced into marriage in India.]

    No. 4. Ask any gay couple who have been refused accommodation i.e. rental of a property for concoctedl reasons when what the landlord is really saying is “we don’t want your kind living here”. Boy do you live in a rarified bubble.

    [Daphne – No, you do. The same thing happens to single women (they might bring men in), single men (they might bring women in), single women with children (she’s a slag), black people (they don’t share our culture), Chinese people (they spit on the floor), Libyans (we don’t like their sort, do we), people with tattoos (they might be dealing in drugs), people with dogs (no pets)….need I go on?]

    No. 5. Ask any gay person/persons/couple who have been refused a table in a restaurant because “it is booked up” or “reserved”. But then what would you know, it never happened to you so it can’t happen to others, right?

    [Daphne – As if! That might happen wherever it is you live, but it certainly doesn’t happen here, I can tell you. There is absolutely no objection to gay people anywhere in Malta. Maltese people are extremely tolerant of difference, as long as you’re Maltese, which is why all sorts of unusual families have taken shape and form here. The very idea of a gay person being refused a table in a restaurant – come on. Maybe that table really was reserved. And how would the host/hostess know you’re gay, anyway? Do you wear a T-shirt that says so? Now if you were to ask me about black men not being allowed into clubs in Malta – then, yes. But everyone loves gay men here. You can’t switch on any of the three Maltese main television stations without finding a gay man hosting some show or appearing as a guest on one, and believe me, they are SUPER camp. Butch women are not quite so popular, but that doesn’t have anything to do with their sexuality and everything to do with their lack of pretty femininity. Women in Maltese culture are meant to be tiny and doll-like, hence Astrid Vella’s constant posturing. But as we women know, the small ones who talk in tweety-bird voices are the ones to watch out for.]

    No. 6. Are you telling me that if the partner of a gay person wants to visit his partner in hospital over the objections of the nuclear family then the partner’s wishes trump those of the nuclear family?

    [Daphne – Mhux ovvja, Anthony? If your partner is over 18, the hospital administration is in duty bound to follow his instructions. He can leave instructions not to admit his family and/or you, or to admit his family and/or you. The fact that one is confined to a hospital bed does not deprive one of one’s free will. Even I, as a married woman with grown sons, can instruct the hospital staff not to admit my husband and sons should I wish to do that for whatever reason, and to admit my girlfriends with a few bottles of wine instead – though I admit the nurses might draw the line at the wine.]

    If the partner of gay person wants to pull the plug and the nuclear family want the moribund person to remain in a vegetative state will the gay partner’s wishes prevail?

    [Daphne – The next of kin’s wishes will prevail. The important thing to do is to ensure that you are down as next of kin. Of course, if he becomes moribund before he fills in the form, you have a problem. But this is no different to any other unmarried couple, and understandably so because you can’t have people walking in off the street claiming to be the moribund person’s partner and demanding to switch off ventilators and whatever. But a word of caution here: even marriage is not enough to give you the right to switch off the machines. Do you remember the horrible, protracted Terry Schiavo case, in which Mrs Schiavo’s parents challenged in court her husband’s decision to take her off life-support after long, comatose years? And sometimes, it’s not even enough to take that decision yourself, loud and clear when you’re not comatose, as Piergiorgio Welby discovered in Italy.]

    No. 7 – All rights started out as wants that society eventually recognized as rights. Slaves wanted to be free, women wanted to vote just like men and so did blacks, people who were not land owning wanted to vote in the same way as people who owned land, women wanted to attend university just like men, women want to be priests just like men, married men want to be able to be priests just like single men, labor unions wanted to be able to organize and strike to obtain legal recognition of their demands. Gays want to have the same rights as heterosexuals.

    [Daphne – No, all rights did not start out as wants. The list of rights is enshrined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, to use its truncated name. Our rights derive from the fact that we are human, and not from the fact that we are gay, straight, black or white. And that’s why I tell you that claiming rights as a gay person is a bad idea. You should be claiming them as a human being. Gay don’t have rights. Human beings do. And yes, homosexuals have the same rights as heterosexuals. I can’t marry a woman either.]

    Again I do not doubt that women have a rough time in Malta and in many other places and for all I know it may be worse being a woman but how does that relate to the topic at hand? Your blog posting is about gay people. If you post a blog about discrimination against women in Malta I would not contribute because I have no direct experience of it nor for that matter would I interject by trying to say that gays have it as bad or almost as bad because it would be irrelevant to the issue.

    [Daphne – How does it relate to this post? I’ll tell you how. The constant moaning about discrimination, by men who happen to be homosexual, is the equivalent of the constant moaning by men who happen to have a light head cold. Why won’t everyone else in the household understand that it’s obviously the flu, if not the swine flu? They lie about moaning on sofas and beds, demanding cups of tea and sulking like there’s no tomorrow. Meanwhile, women with light head-colds just carry on, remembering to pack a hankie and a couple of panadols before they leave the house. Obviously male homosexuals are going to make a fuss. Men make a fuss about almost everything I can think of. And that’s why I’m pointing out that women – gay and straight – have been crucified throughout history, still have problems, but make relatively little fuss. Meanwhile, we can’t help our scornful laughter when we see spoiled western men whine and moan about discrimination because they’re gay. Discrimination? You know nothing about it….sir. Men have always had it good.]

  21. Anthony V. Falzon says:

    @Daphne. I think that you should read for a Ph.D. in circular reasoning – you would ace the course!

    [Daphne – No, Anthony, but I do think you would do well to use some commonsense, and cut the crap about people not being served in restaurants because they’re homosexual.]

    The Schiavo case was pure politics. Schiavo’s husband would have won hands down had the case not been politicized. Gov. Jeb Bush tried to energize the Republican base (the yes to guns and prayer in schools, no to gays and abortion crowd) in an election year. Karl Rove did it with gay marriage for Jeb’s brother in 2004. Had the U.S. economy not been such a disaster in 2008, McCain would have used Sarah (I can see Russia from my back yard) Palin would have pulled the same stunt last November.

    [Daphne – Sorry, I don’t get that. Are you saying that politicians are able to intervene in and deviate the normal course of justice in the United States? I’m sure Kevin Ellul Bonici is going to love this bone I’ve thrown him.]

    Now we both know why you are trying to minimize the legitimate expectations of gay people, don’t we? If successful – strategy will divide gay vote along conservative/liberal lines and undermine Labour’s attempt to court and obtain very high percentage of Maltese gay vote.

    [Daphne – Anthony, you are so cut off all the way there in Miami, with your talk of conervative/liberal. If you were here, you would know that the conservatives line up behind Labour and the liberals line up behind the Nationalist Party, and that the European definition of liberal has nothing to do with the US definition. I am not trying to minimise the legitimate expectations of gay people. I am pointing out that they have one, and only one, possible expectation: civil partnerships. All other perceived ‘rights’ derive from that, just as they do from marriage. I am also reminding people like you that all this victimisation and discrimination is in their minds, and what they fear from ‘coming out of the closet’ (a closet that most people don’t even know they are in, having long since known they are homosexual) is not society’s opprobrium but that of their parents and/or siblings. But it is easier to project their anger onto society than admit they were raised in the sort of household where love was conditional on perceived good behaviour and not frightening the horses. My closest work colleague is a homosexual man in a relationship almost as long as my marriage. My photographer is a homosexual woman with an adopted child. And guess what? I actually had to stop and think about this, because I don’t think of them as gay and they don’t think of me as straight. We just think of each other as people and that’s why it works. I could never work with anyone who is forever making scenes and complaining about prejudice and rights, whether they’re gay, straight, bent, man, woman or from Mars.]

    • Gay in Malta says:

      As long as you don’t force it down people’s throats, being gay in Malta has become much easier than it was even in the 90s. Of course, wagging tongues and whispers will always be a feature of social life, but how can that change with a law? And the people who wag most are those who otherwise pose as the most enlightened beings: you would be surprised.

      Gays who live abroad, like most Maltese who live abroad, tend to freeze their idea of Malta as it was when they left. But Malta has become much more accepting of gays, and the more people talk/gossip about gays in the arts, the media, politics, business, the more people will get to realise that being gay is no big deal.

      I know loads of gay men who rent flats and houses without any problem whatsoever. I would say landlords actually prefer gay tenants.
      As to restaurants, I have never been refused a table in a restaurant because I was with a same-sex partner. It does happen to me, of course, but only because a restaurant is full.

      Visiting a gay partner in hospital: I have never met any gay man in Malta who’s had such a problem. Does anyone really believe that families of gay men will not allow their sons’/brothers’ partners to visit them in hospital?

      Most employers appreciate the way gay people go about work where, in some respects, they show particular advantages over straight men. Gay men tend to relate better with women and are more cooperative than competitive, which is an advantage in a team.

      [Daphne – My right-hand man is gay, and you’re right, it would never work between us if he weren’t. If he were either a straight man or a straight woman, we would be in a permanent state of competition or conflict, trying to outwit and outdo each other. And straight men react very badly indeed to being asked for things by women. They appear to believe that this is a form of emasculation.]

      Malta would probably be classified better in gay terms than towns of similar population size in America, for example, or even Britain, where gay-bashing happens much more often than in Malta. On the other hand, if you compare Malta with London or Paris or New York or Sydney, then of course, Malta’s worse.

      But let’s be realistic. These are huge metropolises that are magnets for gay people from all over the world, and to where many gay Maltese have emigrated. They compare their situation there with Malta; but they really are comparing apples with oranges.

      The grumbles are actually that Malta is small, people are more closeted and, therefore, meeting men to one’s liking becomes more difficult simply because of a numbers problem.

    • Kev says:

      “Are you saying that politicians are able to intervene in and deviate the normal course of justice in the United States?”

      You are so off the mark in these matters – so nauseatingly unknowledgable – that it is better to just let you babble until one day your false peace of mind is shattered. You have no idea of what is going on because you have been too lazy to research what you ought to have been researching these past years. Your rigid mentality has failed you tremendously.

      So, happy dreams, Daphne – I had met many Daphnes in the Soviet Union who would not be convinced that what they read in the varied Soviet media was controlled propaganda. At least the Soviets had superior Western products to compare with (it is the one thing that caused them to wake up).

      If by any chance you want to descend from your high chair to learn something substantial, watch this interview with Aaron Russo (director of Trading Places). At the very least, you could find it interesting. But remember, Russo is not saying anything out of this world because this is all documented stuff. Then you might want to watch his last film before he died in August 2007: “America: Freedom to Fascism” (2006) (Google video or youtube).

      Better still, just ignore it all and carry on with your Lilliputian drivel.

      • kev says:

        Oh, so you censor the comment, removing the link… must have been too subversive. Daphney’s LaLaLand rules OK!

        And I’ll bet you a paper dollar you’ll delete this comment.

        [Daphne – Kevin, I haven’t deleted any of your comments. In fact, I don’t even read them or answer them because the experience is too exhausting.]

      • kev says:

        My most sincere apologies then – a computer bug.

        I’m not doing this to waste time, Daphne. There is nothing here that should not interest you and your readers intensely, unless you intentionally want to remain inside that small box (which is impossible, on second thoughts, cos you wouldn’t know in the first place).

        But let me just challenge your readers to watch Parts 6 and 7 of “America: From Freedom to Fascism” – it would be difficult not to carry on once one understands what they’re talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOHJjq5uZb8 (you’d have to give yourself a chance to understand this tip of a huge iceberg).

        The situation is precarious now – and it affects us all. Since that film was made (2006) there have been numrous developments in the same direction – I know because I have been following – not the loonies, but the same American media that repeats government statements and reports on congressional bills (not TV of course).

        The interview I was referring to in the previous post is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGAaPjqdbgQ (Reflections And Warnings – An Interview With Aaron Russo).

        I’ll let you all to your frivolities… where ignorance is bliss, ’tis indeed folly…

  22. Karl Flores (previously Karl only) says:

    To john,

    THANK FOR ACCEPTING MY APOLOGIES

  23. Stephen Borg Cardona says:

    It is very rude and unfair Mrs Caruana Galizia that you intersperse your comments half way through other peoples comments. If you want to rebut an argument please answer at the end of the other persons comments thus giving them time to finish their argumentation. You and I know that what you are doing is unethical, please refrain from continuing with this practice. Thank you.

    [Daphne – Who the hell are you to tell me what to do? What’s rude, sir, is to barge in here and begin issuing instructions IN MY SPACE.]

    • WhoamI? says:

      Calm down, calm down… but Daphne, you are right in saying that this is your house, so your rules. But he does have a point – despite putting the word in a rather inappropriate fashion. I too find it difficult to follow the arguments, but I enjoy the blog, so have to get used to the rules. But, in the spirit of improvement, I politely suggest that you consider it.

      [Daphne – It wouldn’t work. It is clearer and more coherent to take each point as it comes up and answer it, rather than tackling all the points en masse beneath, which would leave readers unable to keep track. Perhaps the ‘conversational style’ of ‘Stephen Borg Cardona’ is to pronounce himself at length and then to turn to somebody else and say ‘Now it’s your turn to speak.’ But that’s not the way conversation works.]

      • WhoamI? says:

        You tackle issue by issue – this is true and as you say, when you have a lengthy piece of writing it doesn’t work to write en masse underneath. Ma nafx – qisu hemm kemm arguments in favour u hemm against. Ma tistax tivvinta xi haga fejn forsi tiktek on the side rather milli taht? Tkun qed taqbad issue issue, yet thalli the original script originali… no idea what this involves from a tech point of view or whether it is at all possible.

        [Daphne – It isn’t possible technically and it wouldn’t work visually.]

  24. Stephen says:

    The sentences with quotation marks are the main points Daphne has made, but paraphrased in the way I understood them. Each one is followed by a counter-argument.

    “Gay people are not discriminated against because they, like everyone else, have the right to marry someone of the opposite gender.”

    That is almost equivalent to saying that if men were allowed to terminate their pregnancies and women weren’t, it would be ok. Both notions are absurd because rights must take into consideration a person’s nature. If it is my nature to desire a long-term emotional and legal commitment with someone of my gender, then my right to marry someone of the opposite gender is null. It means as much as it would mean for a man to be able to abort his own pregnancy.

    [Daphne – Wrong. Rights devolve on you as a human being, and not as a gay human being. The law says that one man may marry one woman. It is does not specify that the man/woman must be heterosexual/homosexual. Therefore, there is no discrimination. Whether you wish to enter into such a marriage is another matter entirely that has nothing to do with rights and everything to do with wishes. I understand your point, but by insisting that this is a right, you are merely setting yourself up for a fall. Just call it a legitimate desire and that way you won’t lose the argument.]

    Gay people are not discriminated against because even some heterosexual people cannot marry those who they want to marry, if, for instance, one of the people is already married.”

    This does not mean that marriage is not a right that should be granted to gay people. It simply highlights another right – the right to terminate a marriage and enter into a new one.

    [Daphne – The right to marry is not vested in your sexuality, but in your status as an unmarried human being. As an unmarried man – the law does not care about your sexuality – you have exactly the same right to marry as every other man has. This is not a moral judgement, but a legal fact, and instead of battling against it, accept that it is not about rights but about desires.]

    Gay people are not discriminated against because they basically have the same rights or lack of rights as single/unmarried heterosexuals.”

    Yes, but why should a gay couple pay more tax than a married heterosexual couple if they contribute in the same way to society? (Keeping in mind that gay people can raise children too.)

    [Daphne – Again, you are not thinking clearly. All married couples have the same status and all unmarried couples have the same status, whether those unmarried couples are gay or straight. Why should a gay couple pay more tax than a married heterosexual couple? Because they’re not married – hence they have the same tax status as an unmarried heterosexual couple. The taxman doesn’t investigate your sexual preferences.]

    Gay people should not be calling for rights but should be making noise about their wants.”

    Wants and rights are interlinked. What is a ‘want’ and what is a ‘right’ is determined by time and culture, so it is short-sighted to say that something cannot be described as a right because it is not yet recognised as such. Is it the right of an unborn child to live or the right of a mother to decide whether to go through with a pregnancy? Or is either of those a ‘want’?

    [Daphne – You do not have rights because you are gay. You have rights because you are human. Hence, you cannot expect to receive preferential treatment or ‘more rights’ because you are gay. And that is why you have exactly the same rights as the straight man across the road.]

  25. Stephen Borg Cardona says:

    Your right hand man is gay you say, one wonders whether if Malta were the heaven on earth for gay men that you depict it as being your right hand man would still be so discrete about his sexuality.

    [Daphne – I imagine you mean discreet, not discrete. He is. Everybody loves him because his manners are perfect. If, on the other hand, you mean ‘secretive’, then he isn’t. He has lived with his partner for many years in a house in Sliema and they are a long-established and widely known couple.]

  26. Stephen Borg Cardona says:

    Ah so you invite guests over and then you feel within your rights being rude to them because its your house. I see.

    [Daphne – Your comparison is inadequate. When I invite people over to my house, I know who they are, and they’re not rude to me.]

  27. David Buttigieg says:

    I hate to nit-pick but homosexuality is punishable by death in seven not 70 countries – namely Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, United Arab Emirates, Sudan, Nigeria and Mauritania. I agree that’s seven too many, of course. And for the record homosexuality is a criminal offence in 93 countries – shocking!

  28. Chris Ripard says:

    I like the way you generalise about men being useless (viz with a light head cold) and women being stoics . . . come to think of it, I must be a woman too – colds never lay me down, I can multitask (including cooking, washing dishes, doing the shopping for groceries) . . . then again, maybe not – I don’t collapse in a hormonal heap every month, I don’t get moods, I don’t make frivolous purchases, I don’t use – or need : ) makeup, I don’t have 47 pairs of shoes, I don’t spend hundreds of euros a year on my hair, I can drive . . . glass ceiling my eye!!

    • Corinne Vella says:

      Several million women drive, don’t spend hundreds of euros a year on their hair, don’t have 47 pairs of shoes and don’t wear make up or make frivolous purchases like tickets to football matches, expensive cars, and sundry gadgets that do little to add to quality of life in a household. I’m one of them.

      Men don’t get moods? No, they get depressed because ‘their’ football team/waterpolo team/horse had a bad day. Men don’t collapse in hormonal heaps. They go into a massive sulk without any legitimate biological reason.

      Perhaps the reason men don’t spend hundreds of euros a year on their hair is because they’re bald, but give the average man a couple of hundred thousand euros and he’ll buy himself a Ferrari ‘because he deserves it’.

  29. Chris Ripard says:

    Hi Corinne – what irked me was Daphne’s generalisation. Of course there are women who can drive, just as there are men who can’t. Clearly, generalising bugs you, and rightly so! Ditto and likewise moi. Just because of my gender, I’m useless with a slight ailment – utter tosh and she knows it.

  30. Stephen Borg Cardona says:

    “Your comparison is inadequate” is your opinion, however this does not refute my argument as to your rudeness. Also please note that i was saying that you were being rude to your guests not vice versa.

    [Daphne – If you think that was rude, you haven’t a clue what I’m capable of. Please leave before I really let rip.]

  31. P Davis says:

    Well said, Daphne. However, I do earnestly beg you not to refer to homosexual and lesbian deviants as “gay”. I find the term repulsive in the extreme. God bless. P Davis.

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