“I had in mind the likes of Lenin, Stalin, Pol-Pot and present-day China”

Yes, I know. I already tackled Lenin and Stalin. You may add Pol-Pot, present-day China and any other totalitarians. It’s all about power and control, and the total submission of individuals to the “higher” Utopia. In that sense, totalitarian dictators are treated as little different from Gods.

Unfortunately, due to Stalin’s methods of censoring his predecessors material we might never know what else he might be guilty of, but there is no way you can place him in the same category, or league, as Stalin, Pol-Pot and Mao.

“you might wish to illuminate me on the origin of the violence inflicted by atheist regimes (who pride themselves in being totally ,one-hundred per cent godless), on millions of people world-wide in recent years (since the end of world war two)”.

Ok, here goes:

First of all, that Hitler was an atheist is a myth. In fact he was a Christian. But let’s say he was an atheist, for argument’s sake (after all, it is beyond question that Lenin and Stalin were atheists).

What Lenin/Stalin and Hitler had in common were that they were both Utopians and Totalitarians. This means that they believed in the most extreme sense that the ends justify the means. This is the reason why they chose to eliminate everyone who was seen as a threat to their Utopias.

In Lenin/Stalin’s case, since religion opposed their Communist totalitarian utopia, and since they believed that the ends justify the means, it was natural for them to wish to eliminate religion. Of course, they never succeeded.

You would also wish to note that in the case of Lenin/Stalin, they even murdered fellow comminists because they did not trust them.

Hitler/Stalin/Lenin did not kill anyone for atheism.

Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot or Kim Jong-Il would probably be better examples, as Hitler did find some justification straight from the bible and from previous christian teachings, just like he did with Nietsche’s writings, as well as norse pagan mythology. It’s beside your point though as, just as you said, these people would use anything to justify their actions.

[Daphne – OK.]

I have been patiently trying to point THAT out all along, However the undisputable fact remains that criminals who happen to be Christians have no right to commit atrocities in the name of Christ because Christ set NO precedent for certain (what we may consider) criminal behaviour in the gospels. There is not Koranic equivalent for Christ’s comment on “Give to Ceaser what is Caeser’s and give to God what is Gods” or “Father forgive them for they know not what they do” as He lay dying on the cross.

[Daphne – ‘Criminals who happen to be Christians have no right to commit atrocities in the name of Christ because Christ set no precedent for criminal behaviour in the gospels’. You mean that if he had, that would have given them the right to commit atrocities, or just the right to claim those atrocities in his name? Don’t mind me – I’m just confused about the workings of a non-secular mind. To me, atrocities are atrocities, and the Bible and Koran are irrelevant in this regard.]

@ Sybil:
It depends on which part of the bible you read. God did order the killing of homosexuals, disrespectful children, those who have sex with animals (strangely enough, ordering the killing of the poor animal as well), etc. He also ordered genocide, approved of slavery, approved of prostitution, etc. You should read the bible sometime.
Of course, you will say that was not Jesus…it was the OLD testament…but was it not the same god?
The violence in all religions comes from taking the scriptures literally. Christianity is not immune to this.”

Your posting indicates some limitated knowledge regarding what is in the Gospels and what Christ actually said about the old Mosaic laws when faced by hypocritical questions and accusations. It also highlights your limited understanding of Islam especially where it involves which part of the Koran abrogates which other part written in the same Koran, etc.

Finally you might wish to illuminate me on the origin of the violence inflicted by atheist regimes (who pride themselves in being totally ,one-hundred per cent godless), on millions of people world-wide in recent years (since the end of world war two).

[Daphne – Re your last paragraph: ah, so you’ve noticed at last that human-beings don’t need the Koran and the Bible to persecute others, and that they are perfectly capable of doing it with neither.]

i do suggest you read what Christ is reported in the Gospels to have told His followers re “converting at all costs, no matter what”, and compre it with what the founder of another creed had to say to his followers on the subject ., and on his death bed too. Trivializing the discussion, disrediting posters or going off tangents will not change what is written in certain holy books, where every single word is considered as the very word of the Diety itself and is not open to interpretation of any sort or change.

[Daphne – Perhaps Sybil might explain to us the Biblical inspiration for the persecution, torture and murder of millions of heretics, infidels, Huguenots, Cathars, Muslims, witches, Jews, picaninnies, amoral savages of the New World…..I am all agog.]

If one bothers to read first before asking sarky questions in mockery, one will find that one’s query was answered earlier. If one choses to mock, interpret, revise , compare and contrast or apologize for what is written in the Gospels, Koran etc, one should make an effort to , at least be conversant in what is written there first, or else use reliable researchers.

[Daphne – Sybil, you’re very trying. The historical and contemporary facts show that, no matter what is written or not written in the Koran or the Bible, there will always be people who use the Koran or the Bible as an excuse to hurt, persecute, kill, terrorise or abuse others. And if there were no Koran or Bible, they would find some other reason, just as they do when those books don’t serve their purposes – as Hitler did. That’s all. The persecution of others outside the group is human nature. The Bible and the Koran just provide the excuse.]

It is mine. They have been offending me for years.