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	Comments on: Ah, frozen embryos. But no divorce.	</title>
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	<link>https://daphnecaruanagalizia.com/2010/10/ah-frozen-embryos-but-no-divorce/</link>
	<description>Daphne Caruana Galizia is a journalist working in Malta.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 24 Oct 2010 15:45:08 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Reuben Scicluna		</title>
		<link>https://daphnecaruanagalizia.com/2010/10/ah-frozen-embryos-but-no-divorce/#comment-63953</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Reuben Scicluna]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Oct 2010 15:45:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://daphnecaruanagalizia.com/?p=8465#comment-63953</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://daphnecaruanagalizia.com/2010/10/ah-frozen-embryos-but-no-divorce/#comment-63940&quot;&gt;Chris II&lt;/a&gt;.

I concede that I got some of my facts only partially right but:
a) you keep mentioning Germany where you say that IVF is quite strictly regulated, but there are countries  - one of which is England - where they produce more than 3 embryos and whether they implant or freeze the &quot;best&quot; ones is discussed with the parents
b) in these cases the &quot;extra&quot; embryos are used as insurance against the high fail rate (because you cannot say that the procedure was successful until the baby is born)
c) my issue is with these &quot;hedge&quot; embryos. They are produced just in case, to be disposed of at a later stage

You also mentioned that the low success rate of the procedure is partly due to chromosomal abnormalities, which nature &quot;kills off&quot; because they are not good enough. This is acceptable only when it happens of its &quot;own accord&quot;, without human interference.One would be knowingly producing people with a higher chance of death. How ethical is that?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://daphnecaruanagalizia.com/2010/10/ah-frozen-embryos-but-no-divorce/#comment-63940">Chris II</a>.</p>
<p>I concede that I got some of my facts only partially right but:<br />
a) you keep mentioning Germany where you say that IVF is quite strictly regulated, but there are countries  &#8211; one of which is England &#8211; where they produce more than 3 embryos and whether they implant or freeze the &#8220;best&#8221; ones is discussed with the parents<br />
b) in these cases the &#8220;extra&#8221; embryos are used as insurance against the high fail rate (because you cannot say that the procedure was successful until the baby is born)<br />
c) my issue is with these &#8220;hedge&#8221; embryos. They are produced just in case, to be disposed of at a later stage</p>
<p>You also mentioned that the low success rate of the procedure is partly due to chromosomal abnormalities, which nature &#8220;kills off&#8221; because they are not good enough. This is acceptable only when it happens of its &#8220;own accord&#8221;, without human interference.One would be knowingly producing people with a higher chance of death. How ethical is that?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Chris II		</title>
		<link>https://daphnecaruanagalizia.com/2010/10/ah-frozen-embryos-but-no-divorce/#comment-63952</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris II]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Oct 2010 20:10:19 +0000</pubDate>
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					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://daphnecaruanagalizia.com/2010/10/ah-frozen-embryos-but-no-divorce/#comment-63947&quot;&gt;David Buttigieg&lt;/a&gt;.

The report states - &quot;women of fertile age&quot; - so it is a bit vague. I believe that it should be defined (in my opinion - not older than 50 and preferably 45 years)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://daphnecaruanagalizia.com/2010/10/ah-frozen-embryos-but-no-divorce/#comment-63947">David Buttigieg</a>.</p>
<p>The report states &#8211; &#8220;women of fertile age&#8221; &#8211; so it is a bit vague. I believe that it should be defined (in my opinion &#8211; not older than 50 and preferably 45 years)</p>
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		<title>
		By: Chris II		</title>
		<link>https://daphnecaruanagalizia.com/2010/10/ah-frozen-embryos-but-no-divorce/#comment-63951</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris II]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Oct 2010 20:06:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://daphnecaruanagalizia.com/?p=8465#comment-63951</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://daphnecaruanagalizia.com/2010/10/ah-frozen-embryos-but-no-divorce/#comment-63940&quot;&gt;Chris II&lt;/a&gt;.

Reuben, sorry, but  your  science is pretty inaccurate.

1. IVF does not necessarily produce multiple embryos.

2. The success of IVF is of around 70-80%. The problem is implantation where the percentage goes down to around 20-25%. This is not due to problems with sperm but problems with the embryo. 70% of the embryos produced through IVF have severe chromosomal abnormalities (and this is even higher in ICSI) and thus they do not implant. It is nature&#039;s way of eliminating these abnormal embryos. Again, this is why implantation rate decrease the older the woman.

3. So in those countries (Germany, Austria and Switzerland - just to mention three)  where freezing of embryos is not permitted, three oocytes are fertilised and and all are implanted and when successful, but one gets implanted.

4. This fact was not part of your reasoning, but I thought that I should mention it here. Multiple pregnancies are not usually due to IVF but to fertility treatment. Dr Paul Soler&#039;s argument that was quoted in the select committee&#039;s report has been inaccurately reported by a number of commentators - basically giving the impression that IVF ends in multiple pregnancies.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://daphnecaruanagalizia.com/2010/10/ah-frozen-embryos-but-no-divorce/#comment-63940">Chris II</a>.</p>
<p>Reuben, sorry, but  your  science is pretty inaccurate.</p>
<p>1. IVF does not necessarily produce multiple embryos.</p>
<p>2. The success of IVF is of around 70-80%. The problem is implantation where the percentage goes down to around 20-25%. This is not due to problems with sperm but problems with the embryo. 70% of the embryos produced through IVF have severe chromosomal abnormalities (and this is even higher in ICSI) and thus they do not implant. It is nature&#8217;s way of eliminating these abnormal embryos. Again, this is why implantation rate decrease the older the woman.</p>
<p>3. So in those countries (Germany, Austria and Switzerland &#8211; just to mention three)  where freezing of embryos is not permitted, three oocytes are fertilised and and all are implanted and when successful, but one gets implanted.</p>
<p>4. This fact was not part of your reasoning, but I thought that I should mention it here. Multiple pregnancies are not usually due to IVF but to fertility treatment. Dr Paul Soler&#8217;s argument that was quoted in the select committee&#8217;s report has been inaccurately reported by a number of commentators &#8211; basically giving the impression that IVF ends in multiple pregnancies.</p>
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		<title>
		By: R Camilleri		</title>
		<link>https://daphnecaruanagalizia.com/2010/10/ah-frozen-embryos-but-no-divorce/#comment-63950</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[R Camilleri]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Oct 2010 16:55:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://daphnecaruanagalizia.com/?p=8465#comment-63950</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://daphnecaruanagalizia.com/2010/10/ah-frozen-embryos-but-no-divorce/#comment-63948&quot;&gt;Karl Flores&lt;/a&gt;.

Yes, of course, but that means that before going into a stable relationship you have to go through DNA testing to ascertain that you are not genetic siblings.

What if you have no intention of having a stable relationship and your girlfriends gets pregnant. Then what? Do DNA testing before you decide to sleep with a person, just in case?

Dear Karl, embryo donation in such a small gene pool is very dangerous and may have serious repercussions.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://daphnecaruanagalizia.com/2010/10/ah-frozen-embryos-but-no-divorce/#comment-63948">Karl Flores</a>.</p>
<p>Yes, of course, but that means that before going into a stable relationship you have to go through DNA testing to ascertain that you are not genetic siblings.</p>
<p>What if you have no intention of having a stable relationship and your girlfriends gets pregnant. Then what? Do DNA testing before you decide to sleep with a person, just in case?</p>
<p>Dear Karl, embryo donation in such a small gene pool is very dangerous and may have serious repercussions.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Reuben Scicluna		</title>
		<link>https://daphnecaruanagalizia.com/2010/10/ah-frozen-embryos-but-no-divorce/#comment-63949</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Reuben Scicluna]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Oct 2010 15:13:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://daphnecaruanagalizia.com/?p=8465#comment-63949</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://daphnecaruanagalizia.com/2010/10/ah-frozen-embryos-but-no-divorce/#comment-63940&quot;&gt;Chris II&lt;/a&gt;.

IVF does lead to the &quot;production&quot; of multiple embryos. You then choose the best embryos - i.e. the ones with the best chances for survival - for transfer and implantation.

Implantation rate decreases with age, so the older the woman (older than 35 - 40, if I remember well) the more embryos are implanted.

The implanted embryos are human embryos. They will develop - if they live long enough - into human beings. They will not develop into something else. We are there dealing with humans, albeit at a very early stage of development.

when IVF fails for whatever reason - generally related to sperm deficiencies, however - some people opt for ICSI. This procedure still necessitates the production of multiple embryos which may or may not survive.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://daphnecaruanagalizia.com/2010/10/ah-frozen-embryos-but-no-divorce/#comment-63940">Chris II</a>.</p>
<p>IVF does lead to the &#8220;production&#8221; of multiple embryos. You then choose the best embryos &#8211; i.e. the ones with the best chances for survival &#8211; for transfer and implantation.</p>
<p>Implantation rate decreases with age, so the older the woman (older than 35 &#8211; 40, if I remember well) the more embryos are implanted.</p>
<p>The implanted embryos are human embryos. They will develop &#8211; if they live long enough &#8211; into human beings. They will not develop into something else. We are there dealing with humans, albeit at a very early stage of development.</p>
<p>when IVF fails for whatever reason &#8211; generally related to sperm deficiencies, however &#8211; some people opt for ICSI. This procedure still necessitates the production of multiple embryos which may or may not survive.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Karl Flores		</title>
		<link>https://daphnecaruanagalizia.com/2010/10/ah-frozen-embryos-but-no-divorce/#comment-63948</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Karl Flores]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Oct 2010 14:12:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://daphnecaruanagalizia.com/?p=8465#comment-63948</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://daphnecaruanagalizia.com/2010/10/ah-frozen-embryos-but-no-divorce/#comment-63945&quot;&gt;R Camilleri&lt;/a&gt;.

Don&#039;t worry; there is a method called called DNA hybridization that determines the similarity of DNA from different sources.  Single strands of DNA from two sources, are put together and the extent to which double hybrid strands are formed is estimated.  The greater the tendency to form these hybrid molecules, the greater the extent of complementary base sequence, (gene similarity).  the method is one of determining the genetic relationship of species.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://daphnecaruanagalizia.com/2010/10/ah-frozen-embryos-but-no-divorce/#comment-63945">R Camilleri</a>.</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t worry; there is a method called called DNA hybridization that determines the similarity of DNA from different sources.  Single strands of DNA from two sources, are put together and the extent to which double hybrid strands are formed is estimated.  The greater the tendency to form these hybrid molecules, the greater the extent of complementary base sequence, (gene similarity).  the method is one of determining the genetic relationship of species.</p>
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		<title>
		By: David Buttigieg		</title>
		<link>https://daphnecaruanagalizia.com/2010/10/ah-frozen-embryos-but-no-divorce/#comment-63947</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Buttigieg]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Oct 2010 18:53:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://daphnecaruanagalizia.com/?p=8465#comment-63947</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Was a maximum age mentioned?

Apart from the ethical issues just mentioned, in the UK 20 women a year who are over 50 years of age give birth through IVF.

So can a woman, in a long stable relationship and is say 60 years old get IVF under these recommendations?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Was a maximum age mentioned?</p>
<p>Apart from the ethical issues just mentioned, in the UK 20 women a year who are over 50 years of age give birth through IVF.</p>
<p>So can a woman, in a long stable relationship and is say 60 years old get IVF under these recommendations?</p>
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		<title>
		By: White Rabbit		</title>
		<link>https://daphnecaruanagalizia.com/2010/10/ah-frozen-embryos-but-no-divorce/#comment-63946</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[White Rabbit]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Oct 2010 14:41:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://daphnecaruanagalizia.com/?p=8465#comment-63946</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://daphnecaruanagalizia.com/2010/10/ah-frozen-embryos-but-no-divorce/#comment-63919&quot;&gt;WhoamI?&lt;/a&gt;.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Pregnant-Man-Thomas-Beatie-Gives-Birth-To-Baby-Girl-In-Oregon/Article/200807115024216?lid=ARTICLE_15024216_Pregnant Man Thomas Beatie Gives Birth To Baby      In Oregon&#038;lpos=searchresults]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://daphnecaruanagalizia.com/2010/10/ah-frozen-embryos-but-no-divorce/#comment-63919">WhoamI?</a>.</p>
<p><a href="http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Pregnant-Man-Thomas-Beatie-Gives-Birth-To-Baby-Girl-In-Oregon/Article/200807115024216?lid=ARTICLE_15024216_Pregnant" rel="nofollow ugc">http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Pregnant-Man-Thomas-Beatie-Gives-Birth-To-Baby-Girl-In-Oregon/Article/200807115024216?lid=ARTICLE_15024216_Pregnant</a> Man Thomas Beatie Gives Birth To Baby      In Oregon&amp;lpos=searchresults</p>
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		<title>
		By: R Camilleri		</title>
		<link>https://daphnecaruanagalizia.com/2010/10/ah-frozen-embryos-but-no-divorce/#comment-63945</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[R Camilleri]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Oct 2010 10:04:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://daphnecaruanagalizia.com/?p=8465#comment-63945</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[p pace has made a very good point.

It seems that there wan&#039;t much thought on this issue.  Embyro adoption on such a small island with a population of ca 450 000 is dangerous for the geen pool.

Would children born from adopted embryoes know who their genetic parents are?

In such a small population, it would not take long before two persons meet and consider to have children, not knowing that in actual fact they are gentetic siblings. This will result in inbreeding!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>p pace has made a very good point.</p>
<p>It seems that there wan&#8217;t much thought on this issue.  Embyro adoption on such a small island with a population of ca 450 000 is dangerous for the geen pool.</p>
<p>Would children born from adopted embryoes know who their genetic parents are?</p>
<p>In such a small population, it would not take long before two persons meet and consider to have children, not knowing that in actual fact they are gentetic siblings. This will result in inbreeding!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Chris II		</title>
		<link>https://daphnecaruanagalizia.com/2010/10/ah-frozen-embryos-but-no-divorce/#comment-63944</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris II]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Oct 2010 06:41:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://daphnecaruanagalizia.com/?p=8465#comment-63944</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://daphnecaruanagalizia.com/2010/10/ah-frozen-embryos-but-no-divorce/#comment-63925&quot;&gt;R. Camilleri&lt;/a&gt;.

Legally it is not abortion and at considering that IVF in Malta is not regulated, one can do as one pleases - this is the reason why some sort of regulation is required.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://daphnecaruanagalizia.com/2010/10/ah-frozen-embryos-but-no-divorce/#comment-63925">R. Camilleri</a>.</p>
<p>Legally it is not abortion and at considering that IVF in Malta is not regulated, one can do as one pleases &#8211; this is the reason why some sort of regulation is required.</p>
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