Oh, to work with gorillas in the wild
Now that the key witnesses in the case against former chief justice Noel Arrigo have been tried and sentenced, we can expect to see an end to the nonsense of having him sashay through society for the last six years as though nothing were untoward, while the case against him remains pending. There is no scope for further delaying tactics, so please, let’s lance this particular boil and have it over with.
Had Arrigo done what his colleague Vella did, and admitted guilt while submitting himself to the mercy of a former colleague on the bench, he would have served his time and been out by now. Instead, it’s just all beginning. We are going to be subjected to a re-run of the facts of the case and the creation of yet another embarrassing and humiliating circus. Embarrassing and humiliating for him, that is – but the man appears to have the hide of a rhinoceros and the subtlety of an inebriated elephant. The other day when I popped into court to counter two libel suits brought by those paragons of democracy and free speech, Dom Mintoff and Anglu Farrugia – neither of whom knows anything about either – I ran into Arrigo at the gate. I thought he had been on a hunt for more straws to clutch at, but was told that he is actually working as a lawyer and arguing cases in court. He still retains his warrant because he hasn’t yet been convicted.
Fascinating stuff – and I had plenty of time to meditate on it while bracing myself for the prospect of another three-hour wait for a barely coherent Mintoff to turn up at his leisure, possibly after having cadged a lift off a passing cameraman. In the event, he must have stayed in bed and we were spared the sorry spectacle of him shouting at the magistrate and insisting that he does as he tells him “ghax jien ghamiltha l-qorti”, then turning round to yell at his lawyer, all to remind us just how dreadful he was when he was prime minister, and how well rid of him we are. .
If I have my life all over again, I will choose to become a shop assistant or to work with gorillas in the wild. As it is, my working life is peopled with rather too many circus-acts than is strictly healthy.
***********************
I choose to fly Air Malta when this is possible, but each time I get on one of their planes I grit my teeth in profound irritation. It’s the little things that annoy the most, and in this case it’s the recorded message which tells passengers that the emergency exits are “clearly signed”. Really, I think to myself? Who signed them, I wonder, and did he use a pen and ink or just a ball-point?
One time, I spent the first five minutes of the flight writing a letter to the chairman of the company to tell him that cheques and letters are signed but doors are marked. However, I am sure he knows this, so instead I’m going to tell Air Malta about it via this column – and that way, all the Maltese passengers who now think that doors can be signed because the national air-line said so will be put straight and stop making the same mistake.
There’s more pidgin-English-thinking at the new state hospital, where the door to the garage bears the legend ‘Door used for car-park’. Oh really, it’s a door? I wouldn’t have guessed it. And it’s used for the car-park? My goodness.
In parts of the world where people think clearly, that sign would just say ‘Car-park’ or ‘Garage’, but in places like Malta, where people think literally, I imagine that the hospital administrators would never put a sign saying ‘car-park’ on a door that leads to the garage, because it’s not a car-park, it’s a door. You can see the literal thinking at work here and it’s enthralling. The internationally-accepted communication code for signs on doors is that a sign on a door does not label the door itself but tells us what lies behind it. In Malta it’s different: the sign on the door labels the door, rather than telling you what lies beyond. So it’s ‘door used for car-park’ and not ‘car-park’.
It won’t be long now before signs stuck on lavatory doors are reconfigured to read ‘door to lavatory’ instead of ‘lavatory’ or ‘WC’ – because it’s not a WC, is it? It’s a door, and what’s more, it’s a door to the WC. This one poses a particular challenge. You can picture the planning meetings. ‘This is not a WC, Henry. It’s a door. So the sign should say so.’ ‘OK then, Alfred. We’ll have a sign saying Door Used for WC’. There is silence, while the implications of this dawn on all those present. Finally, somebody says: ‘But if we do that, people might take us at our word and urinate on it, or worse.’ ‘Well, we can always have another sign saying that’s not allowed, Mario.’ ‘All right, then, Henry, I know. We’ll have a sign that reads This is the Door to the Lavatory.’ Silence again. Then Alfred squeaks; ‘Shall we add a little note saying Open it First?’
*********************
If Josie Muscat wishes to keep his dignity, he should stop what he’s doing right now. When 20 per cent of the people at his national protest against the Immigration Pact consist of Norman Lowell and his handbag Arlette Baldacchino – what else can I call her when she hangs at his side at his every public appearance? – he should know that he is going wrong somewhere. Somebody with the brains to set up a successful mini-empire of clinics and hospitals should have the intelligence to see how badly he’s letting himself down.
Now he tells us that Azzjoni Nazzjonali is going to field a candidate for the upcoming European Parliament elections. Given that the only other possible contender has seen sense and gone back to running his business, then that leaves Muscat himself. Thank heavens he hasn’t a hope in hell of being elected.
*******************
The pointless crusade being waged by Gift of Life and the Malta Unborn Child Movement has been exposed for what it is: the sort of form without substance which great swathes of Maltese society seem to prefer. Reality be damned – let’s concern ourselves with perceived reality and pretence instead. An annual average of 59 Maltese women travel to Britain for an abortion – in the 11 years 1996 to 2006, 649 Maltese women did just that.
The UK keeps statistics on abortions that take place in its clinics, breaking them down by nationality though without any details that would breach a person’s right to privacy. Maltese women also have abortions in Sicily and on the Italian mainland, but Italy doesn’t keep those kind of statistics so we have no way of knowing how many Maltese women have abortions there or whether British clinics are more popular with Maltese women than Italian clinics are. I have a gut feeling that they are, because Britain, and not London, is the medical destination of choice for Maltese. An annual average of 59 abortions – and those are only the ones we know about – appears quite insignificant compared to an annual average of around 4,000 live births. But still the figure is there, and it is this reality that has to be addressed, with no further posturing about Malta being against abortion. The fact that the Maltese may be against abortion on principle and in theory does not stop them having an abortion if they want to, and telling nobody about it but the UK clinic – because they’re obliged to say where they’re coming from. That’s Malta for you.
*******************
So the squatters at Bahar ic-Caghaq have a name: the Safari Camping Club. One can barely credit it. Safari. Camping. Those are two words that are far removed from what these people actually do, which is build shacks and surround them with fences and little yards and even terraces. Then they leave their permanent addresses for four months of the year and squat there in their shanty-town, doing exactly what they do back home at the address shown on their identity card. It’s not camping, and it’s not a safari, and we would all just love it if they buzzed off. They have the most incredible nerve.
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Ms.Caruana Galizia,
You are already sensing that the AN candidate for the european parlaiment will probably be Dr.Josie Muscat:most maltese will agree that we need a voice in europe who will not compromise;the maltese people will probably vote for him in large numbers because there is nothing to lose politically and people are fed up with illegal immigrants.
[Daphne – I disagree. He is unlikely to get many more votes than Norman Lowell did.]
Just a comment on the English language part. Could it be that one may be expecting too much to make the Maltese use English the way the British do? After all the Maltese, despite being relatively fluent in English (compared to most countries), pertain to a culture which is in some aspects dissimilar to the British one, and language and culture cannot be completely disconnected. In Singapore, for example, they consider the way they speak English as their very own English dialect. Maltese people, on the other hand, consider anything other than standard British or American English as as badly spoken English. I would not like to go into the merits of whether the Maltese culture is inferior or superior to the British one; rather I’m hinting towards whether the English language as spoken in Malta should be allowed to adapt to the Maltese culture, as I find the fixation that our English should be like the British one quite colonial. If you take French, for example, this certainly varies between France, Belgium, Canada and other francophonic countries. So why would it be so tragic if the Maltese spoke English in a different way from the British? Not even people within Britain speak English in the same way everywhere.
[Daphne – Are you serious? English is a language. There is a correct way of speaking and writing it, and an incorrect way of speaking and writing it. There are some minor differences in spelling and the use of nouns between English and American English, but that’s about it. Anything else is just plain wrong. A corrupt form of English becomes a patois – not a ‘different way of speaking English that is just as correct’. What in heaven’s name does colonialism have to do with it? My Italian is terrible, but I would never dream of saying that the way I speak it is just as correct as the Italian way because to insist otherwise is colonialism. Those who speak bad English are speaking bad English, not different English.]
I justthought I’d share one of the most stupid things I’ve done in my life …
I’ve just been to the times website and there was an opinion poll about whether or not the “lyrics” to the Maltese national anthem should be changed … I went through the trouble of clicking on “don’t care” … if I really didn’t care I wouldn’t be participitaing now, would i?
*blush*blush*
I’d probably get more votes myself ;)
Norman Lowell got too many for what he is (and says).
So is Norman Lowell endorsing the AN candidate after all?
re. the English language, I think Daphne is a little hard on her fellow Maltese. It is true that very few Maltese speak perfect English, but then again I’d say that very few English people speak perfect English. I just heard a grown women, English through and through, say the following : “We have to go out and learn them how to do it!” She obviously (well to me at least) meant “teach them”, but she repeated this line at least 3 times, so it wasn’t just a one off. I’ve also worked in the UK for a long time now, and a lot of the people I work with can’t spell to save their lives. And we’re talking university graduates here. So give the Maltese a break Daphne!
@ Dave
Dave, you are kidding, right? Please tell me you are, as the cacophony of idiocy you managed to concoct can never be taken seriously.
I’m originally Italian, and ‘we’ are notoriously known for our ‘bad English’. (Even though many tend to generalise and discriminate each and every Italian, which is undoubtedly counterproductive.) Nevertheless, we would never dare say that ‘our’ English is just another way of speaking the language. As Daphne told you, there is a good way and a wrong way of speaking any language.
Upon arriving here, what my family did was to book some English private lessons, as we were not oblivious to our poor level of English. (Now that I speak it fluently, however, I can notice that it is not only the Italian’s English that needs attention, but also that of many of the Maltese population.)
Dave, you simply cannot justify the unjustifiable.
Ms.Caruana Galizia,
Dr.Josie Muscat got 465 first preference votes in the Marsascala local council election;he did poorly in the last general election because votes to the small parties are deemed to be wasted when the objective is not to allow the other big party to win:Dr Cassola almost made in the european parlaiment elections last time,and he was not trying to solve the immigration problem!
[Daphne – Well, if he thinks he can get elected on the strength of Marsascala’s votes alone…]
Steve – Two wrongs don’t make a right.
Yes…the recycling plant issue was a very convenient vote-catcher in a Labour stronghold like Marsascala (I know, I live there). But then, we already know he pandered to hunters who still failed to vote for him or his party (they did not even vote for their own secretary!).
If Emanuel Muscat still thinks Josie has the slightest chance of being elected, he will believe anything.
Dave – Not everybody speaks the same, granted. Are you suggesting that, for example, the following should be acceptable, since they are commonly used by certain people?
Ejja ha’ mmorru school; issa naraw xi tghid il-Miss.
Kemm ghandek shoe nice.
Kemm hu good boy.
Need I go on? Unfortunately, certain people tend to chuck in a couple of English words here and there so often, that it has become ingrained in them. They probably don’t even realise that they are doing it.
English is English and Maltese is Maltese – The two should not be intertwined.
@ Steve – don’t be pathetic… the abysmal level of English in Malta will keep getting worse as long as people like you keep excusing and justifying its steady decline.
Instead of looking at who cannot speak the language properly, why not take a good look at who can… such as the Scandinavians or the Dutch. On the whole their level of English is better than ours and they do not claim to be bilingual, like we do.
As to your graduate friends who can hardly spell… take a good look at the crap our uni churns out year after year. And to add insult to injury, some Maltese have the audacity to compare the one local uni to some of Britain’s finest which, I can assure you, produce a good number of graduates who can spell pretty well.
Ms.Caruana Galizia,
I think the correct reasoning of the possibility of election as MEP of Dr.Josie Muscat is actually more like 12% of the total votes cast in an MEP election:this what he got in the last Marsascala local council if the percentage is translated nationally,probably enough to get one seat for AN?
[Daphne – I doubt it very much. And incidentally, my theory that men who are rabidly right-wing, anti-gay, anti-black, pro-women-in-the-kitchen, and ultra-conservative are usually trying to batten down their own frightening feelings of homosexuality has got some backing in today’s revelation that Georg Haider, the family man with the mourning wife and daughters, was in a ‘special relationship’ with his male deputy. Think about it.]
Re English as she is written in Malta, I agree wholeheartedly with Daphne. The instances she mentioned are about official English text, written by some government clerk. In these cases there is no excuse. Doesn’t anyone check for spelling and grammatical mistakes?
By the way, this morning I heard a gentleman commenting on today’s paper pronounce parole as payroll!
@Luca
Indeed there is a correct way of speaking a language, and if Air Malta are using bad English in their announcements, that should be definitely changed. That’s a situation where correct English is imperative. On the other hand, there’s nothing grammatically incorrect as such in “Door used for car park”, except that it reflects a Maltese way of thinking rather than an Anglo-Saxon one.
However, even though language rules are made by the academia, languages are made by the people. Frequently, language rules are laxed because something becomes accepted colloquially. And as an Italian, you probably know very well how many words of Anglo-Saxon origin have infiltrated Italian because Italians were too “lazy” to invent an Italian version … “computer” and “chattare”, to name a few.
My point is that the way Maltese speak English reflects the way the Maltese think. What may be unnatural is that English is a language which evolves in a culture that is, in many aspects, different from the Maltese one. Ultimately, the way the Maltese speak English will never play a role in the academic evolution of the English language, as it is spoken by too insignificant and small a community. But when it comes to the colloquial way of speaking, there probably isn’t a good or bad way of speaking a language. Very few Maltese speak “correct” English, even among those who speak English as their first language.
Finally, whilst I do not think that any Maltese way of speaking English should be regarded as correct/standard way of doing so, I guess it is merely a reflection of the mindset of our country, and not something which should be looked at with disdain.
P.S. I’m trying to spark a discussion here, no need to pounce on me if I come up with unorthodox points of view. That’s what “thinking outside the box” requires after all.
Ms.Daphne Caruana Galizia,
Well Haider must have been a bit of Alexander the Great and Julius Caesar all rolled into one:they also had preferred male companions!
[Daphne – Your inappropriate comparison shows that you missed the point entirely. Caesar and Alexander both lived at a time which thought nothing untoward of male-with-male relationships, and even encouraged them. So if I had written that men who like men can never be great generals, then fine, it would have been appropriate to point that out. But I said something different: that in our own time, among men brought up in a generation where homosexuality was regarded with horror and distaste, some men – unable to confront these feelings in themselves, let alone live an honest life by coming out of their closet – instead repress them entirely and express their self-hatred in an extreme form of public or private homophobia, usually with associated disparagement of women and far-right conservative politics. That’s all. Look closely at the local far-right scene and you will see what I mean.]
Since we’re churning out our favourite Maltese-English mash-ups, it’s worth pointing out that both sides of the social spectrum are equally guilty of this.
Some of the ones I love to hate are the use of the word ‘arrange’ as an alternative for ‘fix’ (xi dwejjaq, I need to arrange my car), incorrect use of the word ‘at’ (your car keys are at me but – mela you forgot), formulating a question by simply sticking a question mark at the end of a statement (your car will be arranged by Friday?), and the general messing up of accentuation (I’m irriTAted). The above errors are all indicative of a Maltese native but the ironic thing is that so many people who make them can barely speak Maltese at all.
It’s obvious that a language can be spoken either correctly or incorrectly and in the case of a formal setting such as an airport announcement, there can be no excusing incorrect usage. However I also agree with Dave and Steve that one shouldn’t be too anal about it in an informal situation. After all, who can truly claim to speak and write any language perfectly all of the time? The majority of comments here feature some sort of grammatical error.
But who cares? If we started criticising people for messing around with the English language (intentionally or otherwise), surely we should start off with Shakespeare and move on to those pompous so-and-sos who eradicated the informal thou form by insisting on being polite to everyone.
Dave’s and Steve’s ideas regarding English could perhaps be influenced by the ‘anything goes’ treatment that is being applied to the Maltese language itself.
Variants born out of bad pronunciation are now officially accepted so we have krettu (kreditu), bilgri (bil-giri) and kustjoni (kwistjoni) and I fear that, one day, words like pitlor, kanolla and animilju will also become acceptable. The excuse, of course, is that Maltese is the language of the people and therefore, if there is a large enough number of people who break the rules, it is the latter that are wrong and have to be changed. I have personally heard a Maltese linguist say that words like qas (inqas) and daqt (dalwaqt) are interesting variants (“It shows that Maltese is a living language”) and might eventually be included in dictionaries.
In the case of English there is the added problem that the British version is gradually being supplanted by the American one, thanks to computers and television.
[Daphne – I am currently reading one of the better Italian style magazines – sort of the equivalent of Vogue. This is just one quote from among many using English words in their original format: un sex symbol con humour. In Maltese, that would have been ‘seksimbil bil-hjumer.’]
Ms.Daphne Caruana Galizia,
You are a psychologist,as well!My two line comment about Haider must have got you going!Tell us a little bit about character assasination!
[Daphne – It’s not psychology, but simple observation. And by describing the observation that somebody might be behaving in a certain way because he’s repressing homosexual feelings that generate self-hatred and anger as ‘character assassination’ reveals your own feelings about the matter: that to be gay is bad.]
@ Dave
Yes Dave, the Italians, like the Maltese, did indeed adopt many English words, albeit for the fact that at least they, in the majority of cases, keep the correct spelling, adding perhaps a suffix to it. Maltese do not. Is that good or is that wrong? Nobody knows… “Ai posteri l’ardua sentenza” as Manzoni would say it.
However, as to what you describe as ‘people speak according to how they think’, well, I utterly cannot agree with you. (Apart from the fact that I can’t really fathom it.) Wait, would I be right if I venture to say that you are implying that many Maltese people just cannot think right? (Nah, because on such a thing I would utterly agree with you.) Nonetheless, you cannot excuse the blunders and gaffes many make only by saying that they might think that that is the right way you have to say it. As to “door used for car park”, well, nothing is grammatically incorrect there, granted, but reading it doesn’t really convince anyone, does it? I mean, “car park “ would do it all. You would realize that the door leads to the car park. Or do you think that Maltese need spoon-feeding in that too?
There is a standard and correct way to speak any language, as I already said. If at least people were to abide to that, well, things would be much better. It would also spare many people to commit the usual faux pas. (“Ghax I need to go cut my hair ta.” Oh really? You cut your own hair? Yeah, as pitiful as it may sound, many Maltese just say that, “ghax hekk jahsbu li ghandha tkun, allura hekk jghiduha hux!”) Malcolm did mention some of the horrendous mistakes Maltese people make, so I need not mention them again. My point is that those making blunders simply cannot say that theirs is just another way of speaking the language, because they reason things out “a la Maltija” instead of how it should actually be done.
P.S. I too am not trying to spark any discussion :)
Ms.Caruana Galizia,
So God got it wrong in Sodom!
Sex is primarily for procreation and if you go against that it is bad in principle. Your description of rabidly right-wing, anti-gay, anti-black, pro-women-in-the-kitchen, and ultra-conservative men fits whole nations to the south of us and yet when their citizens commit rape outside their country(i.e.in Malta) you object because we are more lenient to maltese rapists:try to find out what happens to somebody who commits rape south of the border,especially if you are a foreigner!Don’t you think there should be ‘quid pro quo’ in this matter?Or do you think that because we claim to be more civilised, justice should be just equal to all whatever!
[Daphne – How you can be anti-gay and support the AN is beyond me. But then not everyone has eyes in his head.]
Antoine Vella: The ‘anything goes’ treatment isn’t limited to language, so it’s no small wonder that Steve et al. adopt the ‘u ijja so what hu’ line of thinking where language is concerned. The flipside to ‘u iva ha, tghaddi hekk’ is that we don’t just set low standards, we deliberately aim for the lowest common denominator. Why else cite someone’s poor use of language as justification for our own?
Here’s a question to which no one’s ever found an answer: What’s wrong with doing things properly?
“For example, in Year 1 that useless letter “c” would be dropped to be replased either by “k” or “s”, and likewise “x” would no longer be part of the alphabet. The only kase in which “c” would be retained would be the “ch” formation, which will be dealt with later. Year 2 might reform “w” spelling, so that “which” and “one” would take the same konsonant, wile Year 3 might well abolish “y” replasing it with “i” and Iear 4 might fiks the “g
j” anomali wonse and for all.
Jenerally, then, the improvement would kontinue iear bai iear with Iear 5 doing awai with useless double konsonants, and Iears 6-12 or so modifaiing vowlz and the rimeining voist and unvoist konsonants. Bai Iear 15 or sou, it wud fainali bi posibl tu meik ius ov thi ridandant letez “c”, “y” and “x” — bai now jast a memori in the maindz ov ould doderez — tu riplais “ch”, “sh”, and “th” rispektivli.
Fainali, xen, aafte sam 20 iers ov orxogrefkl riform, wi wud
hev a lojikl, kohirnt speling in ius xrewawt xe Ingliy-spiking werld.”
(Mark Twain – A Plan for the Improvement of English)
I think some of us are getting a little carried away with Daphne’s example here. She reasonably suggested that English (or any other language) should be used in as proper a manner as possible in a formal situation. However to attack improper language use in a casual setting is a waste of time at the very best. How can anyone claim to encourage freedom of opinion and speech, and then try to control how people actually choose to talk? And even if such a ridiculous notion was taken seriously, how could it possibly be enforced?
And yes, if a word is coined by the public and used by the majority of the people, why should it not be included in the dictionary? That IS how words are made after all. There isn’t some committee of professional wordsmiths who make them up after long meetings and discussions. Or are people suggesting that no new words should be coined anymore?
If a word like ‘daqt’ is used by the majority of the people, it should be accepted in the same way as the English ‘isn’t’ was. If a word like my personal alternative plural for the Maltese ‘soppa’ (spup) is only used by one person in social conversation, then it should quite rightly be left out. Unless more people care to start using it…
Emanuel Muscat:
“So God got it wrong in Sodom!”
Uhmm… Yes. Do you in all honesty believe in that story? Aren’t that one of the many fables of the bible not to be taken literally?
“Sex is primarily for procreation and if you go against that it is bad in principle.”
Says who? I have one child on the way, you think every time I have had sex with my wife it was of the intention of producing that one child? Are you implying that the other times were bad? They certainly didn’t feel bad. On what grounds do you judge them as bad?
“Your description of rabidly right-wing, anti-gay, anti-black, pro-women-in-the-kitchen, and ultra-conservative men fits whole nations to the south of us and yet when their citizens commit rape outside their country(i.e.in Malta) you object because we are more lenient to maltese rapists:”
I don not wish to speak for our kind host, but I think the argument was not to object their sentence, but rather object to why a local pervert, commiting an act even more despicable, got away with a much more lenient sentence. If you feel differently, please explain.
“try to find out what happens to somebody who commits rape south of the border,especially if you are a foreigner!Don’t you think there should be ‘quid pro quo’ in this matter?”
Not even going to comment on that…
“Or do you think that because we claim to be more civilised, justice should be just equal to all whatever!”
If you don’t believe that justice should be equal to all you have no understanding of basic democratic principles.
@ Emanuel Muscat:
“Sex is primarily for procreation…”
I’m sure most women (and men) would disagree.
“and if you go against that it is bad in principle”.
Yes, and medicine goes against nature, but I assume you take medicine when you need it.
Corrine Vella – I never said ‘u ijja so what hu’ (especially if I’m writing English). The point I was trying to make is that to most Maltese, English is a second language. As a second language, they don’t speak it that badly. Why is it that for so many Maltese people anything the Maltese do is automatically rubbish, and anything done anywhere else is great?
Emanuel: people with opinions like yours matter less and less every day.
Antoine Vella – That sort of word has become official already. Just take a look at primary school textbooks . They are littered with words such as “hiter” (heater), “flett” (flat / apartment), “blekbord” (blackbord), “gerzi” (pullover) and
“xorz” (shorts). (All incorrectly pronounced, of course.)
Pat,Kenneth Cassar,Maria
Sex between gays is what I was referring to regarding procreation,and as long as it is done in private I agree that it should not be punishable by law:but the Bible is no fable!And I am not a supporter of AN:it is convenient to label somebody when you run out of arguments!
[Daphne – As long as it is done in private? How many people do you see having sex in public? Sex in public is always an offence, whether it’s between men and men or men and women or women and women or men and goats.]
Emanuel:
I’m sorry, but you’re really not making any sense right now. You were referring to sex between gays when you said that sex is primarily for procreation? How can sex between gays be about procreation?
Please explain a bit better what you meant in your first post.
Also, regarding the bible as a fable. I never said that it is. I said that the story of Sodom was a fable, as that’s how I thought mainstream christians interpreted these OT chapters. So my question remains. Do you really believe in the story of Sodom and Ghomorra?
Ms.Caruana Galizia,
There was a time when homosexual sex in private was punishable:thankfully this grave intolerance period is over.
[Daphne – Emanuel, I know.]
@ Emanuel Muscat:
1. I know what you were referring to.
2. I did not label anyone.
3. I did not run out of arguments. In fact, I could go on forever ;)
@ Emanuel Muscat:
If you seriously believe that the story of Sodom and Gomorrah is historically true, should you not be campaigning to make homosexual acts in private (and in public) punishable by death?
Amanda Mallia Friday, 24 October 1905hrs
Antoine Vella – That sort of word has become official already. Just take a look at primary school textbooks . They are littered with words such as “hiter” (heater), “flett” (flat / apartment), “blekbord” (blackbord), “gerzi” (pullover) and
“xorz” (shorts). (All incorrectly pronounced, of course.)
In Italy, they are forever using English words and writing them as they should be written. Why cant we do the same in Malta? Words like the above-mentioned are un-intelligible for anyone aged over school age. :(
[Daphne – Something else on which to agree, Sybil. Michelle’s love-drug must have found its way into the water.]
Mr.K.Cassar,
There is archeological evidence that such a town as Sodom existed;there is also archeological evidence that the story of the great flood is also true:so which other parts of the Bible(old testament,I presume the new testament is OK)is fable?The story of adam and eve plus the story of joshua(stopping the sun from going round the earth!)are scientifically wrong but the Old Testament is not God inspired and it was never meant to be scientifically correct.
And by the way,I am not compaigning for anything gay and the labelling bit was meant for DCG.
[Daphne – A town called Sodom might have existed, but archaeology has no way of showing you how much sex or what sort people had there on a regular basis. And while archaeology might show you that a town was destroyed by fire or some other catastrophe, it will certainly not tell you that God did it because he was fed up. The story of a great flood which wipes out all of humanity leaving just two people to repopulate the earth is common to many cultures right around the world. It is thought to have its origins in some ancient folk memory of the floods that followed the last Ice Age. The story of Noah and his Ark is directly descended from the Great Flood epics of ancient Mesopotamia.]
“There is archeological evidence that such a town as Sodom existed;there is also archeological evidence that the story of the great flood is also true”
Oh please. The archeological evidence shows it drenched in sulphur as well?
And no, there are no geological evidence of a global flood resembling the biblical flood in any way.
[Daphne – Actually, Pat, there was massive flooding as the last Ice Age ended, though they were lucky to have no prophets of doom around to tell them that it was all because they were burning fossil fuels and running too many fridges.]
Oh sorry, you said archeological. Still, to look for a flood happening three, four, or five thousand years ago, I would trust a geologist better.
Steve: The correct use of English as a first language does not differ from the correct use of English as a second language.
Corinne – Agreed! Although I would allow a little more slack if it’s not your native tongue! I’m currently in France, and French is not my first language. But I get complemented on my French, by the French. Why? Not because it’s any good, it aint, but because they appreciate it’s not my first language!
Daphne:
For starters it doesn’t match with the times. The last ice age ended 10000 years ago (if I remember correctly), when the biblical flood would have taken place somewhere half as long ago. Also, there is an enormous different between a massive flood and a worldwide flood. Thats why I said “biblical flood”.
Floods would obviously have occurred, at least locally, throughout history on numerous occasions, which is why many cultures do have their own flood stories, but it lends no credibility to the story of Noah and his inbreed heritage.
[Daphne – Yes, that’s why I explained that the flood myths might be rooted in ancient folk memory, passed down the generations orally. There was continuity in human habitation – the human race wasn’t wiped out – but there would have been an enormous sense of being the last ones left alive and of everything being wiped out by water as the landscape changed. This would have been retold and retold until it took the form of a myth. The apocalyptic nature of these flood myths is a common thread in all of them: it is clear that this was not just any flood, the kind that happens when rivers overflow their banks. Yes, the last Ice Age did end 10,000 years ago, and the tale of Noah having taken place 5,000 years ago is just a supposition – just as Noah himself is a supposition.]
@ Emanuel Muscat:
If you read carefully what I wrote, I did not say that Sodom never existed (that does not interest me in the least). What I said was that the STORY of Sodom in the bible is simply a fable.
So I ask you again…do you seriously believe that god killed everyone except one family in Sodom, and that god turned a pious and good person into a pillar of salt just because she turned her head for a second to look at the “fireworks”?
Regarding the “great flood”, I’m not disputing that either. What I know for certain to be untrue (because impossible), is the story of Noah and his building an ark to house all animal species (counting in the millions).
You will also understand that many fables are usually built on historical facts, but are embellished and built upon just so that they “teach a lesson”.
Regarding the Old Testament not being god inspired, you will perhaps know that the “prophecy” of Jesus’ coming to earth and “being the messiah” is found in the Old Testament. If you do not believe that parts of the Old Testament are not inspired by god, you would have to disbelieve that Jesus is the messiah.
You can’t have it both ways.
The last sentence in my last post should read:
If you do not believe that parts of the Old Testament are inspired by god, you would have to disbelieve that Jesus is the messiah.
I’d vote for you Ken :)
dear daphne,
Please leave Alfie Rizzo in peace. It is the second time in a few months you mentioned him. Why not bother about electricity bills……why not tell people that capitalism is on the verge of destruction like communism 18 years ago.
[Daphne – I find it impossible not to mention Rizzo. He was a great source of scandal to me, and the hypocrisy with which your favourite political party dealt with the situation was almost a bigger source of scandal. People who want to live as Rizzo did should never involve themselves in politics or be championed by political parties. Would the Labour Party have championed or paraded on its television station a married heterosexual man with children who played the family man in public and who then spent his nights cruising Gzira for pubescent girls to take back to his office for a shag, only to end up being knifed by one of them? I very much doubt it. So there is no call for special treatment for Rizzo on the basis that he was gay, miskin, because if anything there is even more hypocrisy involved in this situation. If Rizzo and his family wished to be left alone, they should have kept out of the public eye. That’s always the best solution when you’re a homosexual man pretending to be a straight family man when you not only have a boyfriend who’s running Super One but are also cruising the red light district at night. Really, that’s the frigging limit. Capitalism is on the verge of destruction….oh go and read KullHadd, won’t you?]
@ Meerkat:
Oh…really? Thanks ;)
Kenneth: Sorry… but it seems that you may be unaware that as clearly reproduced in the New Testament, Jesus Christ forged a New Pact for mankind. Do some objective research before commenting further, please.
@ Religio et Patria:
I am not unaware that Jesus forged a “new pact”. However, you surely must be aware that an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent god cannot change his mind on fundamental issues such as human rights.
Do some objective research before commenting further, please.
@ Religio et Patria:
Further to my comment above, it is ironic that you ask me to do “objective” research when your screen name denotes an obvious bias.
Perhaps you should note that I was raised a Catholic and only in my adult years (through objective research) I became an atheist. This, of course, does not stop me from reading and knowing the bible more than most Catholics.
It would also help if you clarified exactly what it is that I said that prompted you to give the reply you gave. Were you perhaps referring to the Great Flood story? In that case, do you seriously believe that a benevolent god would kill everyone except one family (killing also children and babies)? Further, would an omniscient god realise his mistake (omniscients do not make mistakes, even though the Old Testament tells us – surprisingly – that god regretted his actions), and make a new pact?
@ Kenneth
I like your logical and respectful arguments…even though I don’t always agree with what you say.
You’d make a good politician :)
@ Daphne
“Would the Labour Party have championed or paraded on its television station a married heterosexual man with children who played the family man in public and who then spent his nights cruising Gzira for pubescent girls to take back to his office for a shag[…]”
Wasn’t it guys he cruised for, Daphne?
[Daphne – Yes. I was just drawing a comparison. Apparently, it’s OK to behave in a certain way when you’re gay, but not OK to behave the same way when you’re not – even though a straight married man trawling through the red light district for girls is a whole lot less hypocritical than a gay married married to a woman, with a family, maintaining a false image, and cruising for boys at night. And those who criticise people like Alfie Rizzo and the ones who ‘protected’ him get accused of homophobia – when it’s not his sexuality that we’re speaking about, but his behaviour.]
@ Meerkat:
The “trick” is to acknowledge the following:
1. We are all the products of genes and environment. This means recognising that some people (including perhaps myself) can’t help being and thinking the way we are and do.
2. Education is progressive. Nobody knows everything and nobody knows nothing. This also means that nobody is always right and nobody is always wrong.
3. We should never take anything or anyone for-granted. It is always important to hear the “opponent” out before passing judgement. It also includes never assuming anything about anybody.
Of course, everybody (including myself) is fallible and makes mistakes. The important thing is that one recognises one’s mistakes and corrects them. This, of course, cannot take place unless we test truth by means of the evaluation of different opinions, and testing the opinions to see if they conform to the available facts.
I would not expect anyone to agree with everything I say. Only an easily persuaded and submissive person would.
Kenneth: I personally think most Atheist become great believers when they mature. Seen it too many times and I, myself, passed in a way through it.
Anyway, going on to your comments regarding the God of the Old and the New Testament. Let me start of by stating that God is one and one needs to understand a bit on who authored the various (inspired) books compiled together in the Bible and the context they were written in.
In addition to this, as a Catholic, I have been raised and thought that the Old Testament is – to simplify it – a historical account more than a basis of our dogma. Our Catholic dogma comes in large part from the New Testament.
If it were solely up to me, I would have a Catholic Bible with just the New Testament (and to be more extreme minus the letters of Paul which have complicated and diluted our religion too much).
Religio:
http://www.amazon.com/Holy-Bible-James-Version-Testament/dp/B00008WJBY/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1225036739&sr=8-2
Regarding your point about atheists becoming great believers when they mature, I would love to see statistics on that. I’m not doubting or saying you are wrong, I’m seriously interested to see if there are any studies done on how religious tendences progress with age.
I just asked, for I didn’t know the whole story. As to the point you’ve made, I find myself to utterly concur with you.
@ Religio et Patria:
“I personally think most Atheist become great believers when they mature. Seen it too many times and I, myself, passed in a way through it”.
Probably the “atheists” you knew were just passing through a rebellous phase. My atheism has nothing to do with rebellion.
“one needs to understand a bit on who authored the various (inspired) books compiled together in the Bible and the context they were written in”.
I will give you that. That is why I believe that most of the Old Testament (at least) should not be taken as literal historical fact. That is why I believe that if god really existed, he did not order genocide, approve of slavery and prostitution, turn a pious woman into a pillar of salt, etc, etc. At least, not if “He” is benevolent.
“In addition to this, as a Catholic, I have been raised and thought that the Old Testament is – to simplify it – a historical account more than a basis of our dogma”.
But I gather that you don’t believe it is a historical account anymore. Correct me if I’m wrong.
“If it were solely up to me, I would have a Catholic Bible with just the New Testament (and to be more extreme minus the letters of Paul which have complicated and diluted our religion too much)”.
But that would create a big problem, I think. Would that not eliminate the whole prophecy of Christ’s coming to earth?
Just saw the streaming of wara l -Kaz on di-ve.com… How ironic is it seeing Dr. Josie Muscat standing up for the disabled persons… It is absolutely something to commend, until you notice that this person can’t stand people because of the colour of their skin… How crazy can a person be?
[Daphne – Well, let’s put it this way. If he didn’t have a disabled daughter himself, he would probably be against disabled people too, which is the usual ideology of far-right politicians. But then, perhaps not. I do think the daughter has lots to do with it, though.]
“If he didn’t have a disabled daughter himself, he would probably be against disabled people too”.
Very true. In fact, he only started his charity work with the disabled after the birth of his daughter.
If I believed in miracles, I would pray that his wife would give birth to a black child.