And then some people say that Africans will corrupt our values
I read stories like this, and can’t help feeling there are so many more of them going on.
The Times, Wednesday, 8th October 2008 – 11:20CET
61-year-old convicted of raping girl aged 10
A 61-year-old man from Birkirkara was this morning jailed for nine years after a court found him guilty of violently raping a 10-year-old girl. He was also convicted of defiling the girl and committing a crime during the operative period of a suspended sentence.The court heard how the man used to show the girl pornographic films. The man used to live in the same house and was the partner of the girl’s mother.
The case was discovered after the girl sought help from the Appogg helpline and after she spoke to the school headmistress and the PSD teacher. Social workers from Appogg had spoken to her and the police were called in. A care order was issued and the girl was moved to Angela House.
The man in a statement to the police said he had been living with the girl’s mother for seven years and he admitted to sometimes having seen porn in the presence of the girl. He also admitted to having occasionally thrown things at her, such as a mug, but had never intended hurting her. The man was jailed for seven years for rape and a two year suspended jail term for theft became effective.
The court ordered that names should not be published in the interests of the victim since the accused had spent years living with her mother and people could therefore identify her in that way.
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In our country , what that Bkara man did was criminal and illegal and deserves punishment. In certain foreign coutries, such actions are part of the culture and the traditional way of life there, and not considered criminal in anyway. That is the problem.
[Daphne – Mention one country, Sybil, in which the rape of a 10-year-old girl by a 61-year-old man is ‘part of the culture and traditional way of life and not considered criminal in any way’. Go on.]
Wait till they bring more aids(remember the nigerian who infected 4 maltese women in court about a year ago!),female circumsition,the veil,drugs,etc and then talk about some local who has justly been punished for his crime:remember we are 400,000 so there is much more chance that locals commit crimes.You should also look at Italy how a country is being overrun by immigrants of all sorts:in Lampedusa yesterday 1000 landed!
[Daphne – Mr Muscat, you are in denial if you think that it takes an African to infect a Maltese woman with AIDS. Maltese women are far more at risk of STDs from the husbands who sleep around with other women, or from husbands they don’t know are gay or bi, than from an African. Because of the shame associated with homosexuality, in up to the most recent generation of adults, the vast majority of gay Maltese men got married, and eased their understandable unhappiness and frustration through cottaging with strangers. Now that, and not an African, is a high-risk activity. Why do you imagine there seem to be far more gay men who are in their 20s than gay men who are in their 50s and 60s?]
Emanuel, you wrote:”remember the nigerian who infected 4 maltese women in court about a year ago!”
What courtroom was this? Are they allowed to have sex in there really?
We,maltese,are in denial about not wanting to be arabised,even more not wanting to be africanised; we voted to be more europeanised and as an anglised lady you should understand this reasoning:I do not care whether we have more gay men flounting it now or before:between 5 to 10% of all nations are gay or lesbian,so what?
[Daphne – If you were to write in Maltese, I would probably have a clearer idea of what you’re trying to say.]
“The court ordered that names should not be published in the interests of the victim since the accused had spent years living with her mother and people could therefore identify her in that way.”
Is it too difficult for the neighbors to link the absence of the convict from the neighborhood to the news in question, to get to know who the victim is? Some smart guys we have running our legal administration.
What do Africans have to do with this? Well, sorry to disappoint you but Africa has one of the highest rates of AIDS and other deadly maladies which to us may be fatal. This has nothing to do with racism. It is basic sanitary measures. Ask the doctors. Ask even veterinarians. Once I had a cocker-spaniel and for one week I left it at a dogs home since I had to go abroad. After a week with those mongrel dogs, the dog got infected and died two weeks later.
[Daphne – You know, I would ordinarily delete a comment like this, but thought it best to publish it to alert others to the fact that you can’t distinguish between humans and animals. Nobody is going to force you – or anyone else – to have sex with somebody who is HIV positive. What are you afraid of exactly? Being raped by an African woman (or man) with HIV?]
Sybil: we’re still waiting for your answer . . .
Emanuel Muscat, let me put this as delicately as I can: Tkunx injurant! Qed iddahhak in-nies bik!!
Another monstrous pervert! He should be severely punished – chopping off his willy perhaps? Sounds drastic but at least he’ll never screw up another girl’s life. This poor girl will carry the scars for the rest of her life.
Emanuel Muscat: Wait till they bring in drugs? Where have you been for the past twenty years? The most high profile cases of drug trafficking involved Maltese men.
If you don’t want to wear a veil, don’t. And if you don’t want your daughters to be circumcised, don’t do it. Meanwhile, sit back and enjoy the spectacle of some Maltese men beating up their wives and raping their daughters – that doesn’t seem to bother quite as much as the prospect of wearing a veil.
So now your english is better than mine which is probably so but your logic is twisted and your smokescreens are very apparent:a piece of advice,read a book called ‘Straight and crooked thinking’ by Thouless(I did when I was in my twenties)and you will see that most of your logic is not as straight as you make it out to be.
[Daphne – http://www.246.dk/38tricks.html Most of the crooked arguments listed there apply to yourself. I think you will find that the ability to argue clearly and logically, and the ability to write a well structured sentence go together. It’s not my English that’s better than yours, but my grammar. I suspect that you write just as confusedly in Maltese.]
lino – and the absence of the child.
This is similar to when neighbours had reported a child in a balcony (?) in San Gwann – many people obviously knew who the child was but the name still was not published. Still, if the names are not published only a certain number of people will realise who they are – if the names are published all and sundry will know. The Vella Gera case (how did it end?) is an example. Until I read it here I never in a million years suspected him and I live near his family.
@ Sybil:
Let’s say that the rape of a child by men who are over 60 is legal (which is not saying it is true – you should stop reading fables and start reading some good books), would this mean that it will become legal in Malta? Smoking marijuana may be legal in Amsterdam, but guess what happens if a Dutch national gets caught importing it in Malta.
_________________________________
@ Emanuel Muscat:
Your comment is quite hilarious, reminiscent of the claim that membership of the EU will get us AIDS. As for the rest, my reply to Sybil applies to you as well.
It was two girls actually, not four… and they were not raped.
[Daphne – Ah, but to Maltese men like our specimen here, any Maltese woman who has sex with an African is ‘raped’. It satisfies that primeval fear of rape by the black outsider, which still echoes down the centuries from all our myths, legends and folk-tales of maidens in distress while Turks lurked outside the cave.]
[Daphne – Mention one country, Sybil, in which the rape of a 10-year-old girl by a 61-year-old man is ‘part of the culture and traditional way of life and not considered criminal in any way’. Go on.]
Liza Crihfield Dalby’s book about becoming a geisha hints heavily at this sort of thing as part of the “training” of these girls. Initiation, rather than training, because it’s a “ritualised” one-off exercise.
On the other hand rape is not the intention of the exercise, however, at such tender ages of 14 and younger, being “mauled” by a man old enough to be their grandfather, I wouldn’t imagine the girls to really enjoy it. I imagine you can say that “acceptable” rape happens in the circumstance …it’s all grist to the mill, tragically.
[Daphne – I don’t think Sybil had Japanese geishas in mind somehow. And it no longer happens.]
[Daphne – Mention one country, Sybil, in which the rape of a 10-year-old girl by a 61-year-old man is ‘part of the culture and traditional way of life and not considered criminal in any way’. Go on.]
Maybe you should seriously inform yourself on the subject or get someone to do the research for you, preferably someone who has spent most of his or her life living in Africa with tribes and races where rape is a tradition, a normal way of life, and the accepted way of bringing down the price of the dowry asked by the parents of a prospective bride from the prospective bridegroom . You should also ask that of some who have spent years in countries were 61 year old men or older) having sex with six or eight year old child brides is no big deal because in so doing , they are simply emulating events in the life of some holy founder. There are even manuals written on the etiquette to follow for men having sex with females of any age, by men who happen to also be important religious leaders in their own countries in modern times. Try these sites for starters http://harpers.org/archive/1985/06/0010032
and some sayings in Khomeini’s book “Tahrirolvasyleh”,fourth Volume,
http://www.geocities.com/islampencereleri3/sayings_of_ayatollah_khomeini.htm
Ask also some of the genuine refugees who escaped from that sort of institutional barbarisms in their native land to a better future here and you will be surprised about what they will tell.
This sort of situation is one that should not be ridiculed, minimized and trivializd by the media just to score a few points. It is a serious issue. There are plenty of things that are regarded illegal and criminal in all of western society but perfectly acceptable elsewhere and this sort of situation leads to often tragic ethnic clashes in western society of the sort we can follow daily on the international news on television.
Yes, we do have home-grown pervs, paeds, wife beaters, wife killers and whats more, we treat them for what they are., criminals. This is the message that we should be passing in no uncertain terms to those ending up on our shores from countries where these criminal activities are concidered a normal way of life.
[Daphne – Sybil, thallatx il-hass mal-bass. What you are talking about is a failure of the law or the absence of the law. That does not mean that these things are considered right or acceptable in the places where they happen. We know this from our own experience. Before strenuous efforts were made in Malta in recent years to raise awareness about the need to report child abuse and violence against women, nothing was reported. This does not mean that no children were sexually assaulted or that no wives were beaten. It just means that there weren’t the structures in place to deal with it. Would it have been fair for somebody visiting from the outside to describe the Maltese as a people who accept the rape of their children and the beating of their wives? You might say yes. My own view is that there wasn’t a conspiracy of silence but genuine unawareness of what was happening. When individual cases were given exposure in the media – that had thus far been reluctant to do so – society was shocked. My biggest post-bag ever was when I interviewed a mother of 10 who had been beaten all her married life and who was then living at Dar Merhba Bik. This was 16 years ago, and my readers had no idea this kind of thing was happening, or even that there were so many women living in that shelter. The law remains the law, no matter who lives here. And please, please, do stop referring to ‘Africa’ as though it is one country. It is made up of many countries with many different people speaking a tower of Babel of languages. When you say ‘Africa’ you are just revealing your prejudices. I asked you to name a country where raping children is legal, not a continent where some people rape children, a crime that happens in every part of the globe.]
Actually, in Iran a girl can be married from the age of 9 (by parents consent), in which case she automatically reaches the age of consent. I would argue that at that age the marriage would have been planned and initiated by the parents and I would define it as child rape.
Saying that, it holds no weight on the argument presented, as noone is suggesting Malta should change their law accordingly.
[Daphne – http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2872/is_/ai_71563378%5D
[Daphne – Mr Muscat, you are in denial if you think that it takes an African to infect a Maltese woman with AIDS. Maltese women are far more at risk of STDs from the husbands who sleep around with other women, or from husbands they don’t know are gay or bi, than from an African. Because of the shame associated with homosexuality, in up to the most recent generation of adults, the vast majority of gay Maltese men got married, and eased their understandable unhappiness and frustration through cottaging with strangers. Now that, and not an African, is a high-risk activity. Why do you imagine there seem to be far more gay men who are in their 20s than gay men who are in their 50s and 60s?]
Whilst acknowledging the dangers of sleeping with husbands who sleep around (unprotected) and with gays (as they are a high risk group where AIDS is concerned, and one may also add drug addcits to the list), one must remember that some of the Africans finding themselves on our shores come from countries where the prevalence of infection with HIV stands at 30% of the population. This high infection rate is due primarily to the different sexual traditions and customs, and the fact that Africans are not prone to practise safe sex, mainly and unfortunately due to lack of education.
Hence, whether we like it or not, and certainly not out of racial prejudice, one must admit, at least to oneself, that having sex with people who have such a high infection rate is very dangerous – we are refering, in some cases, to one in three of the population who may be infected.
30% of Maltese husbands and 30% of Maltese gays are not infected with HIV, although a Maltese woman is more likely to encounter one of the latter two groups than an African, given that the number of Africans on the island is small.
[Daphne – The point at issue, Moggy, is that it takes a deliberate act to get infected: having sex. If you don’t want to get infected, don’t have unprotected sex with strangers. We all know that, but apparently, plenty of people in this country don’t – hence the prevalence of what used to be called venereal disease among the increased number of patients seen by the Boffa Hospital clinic. The real root of the problem is that we share – and this might come as a shock to our friend Sybil – an anti-condom culture with the place she describes as ‘Africa’.]
Marku
Injurant minn jinheba wara nom de plume,min jghajjar li haddiehor injurant minhajr ma jispiega ghaliex:jaqaw inti hadt ghalik b’haga li jien ktibt u ma tridtx issemmija?Anki ghalik japplika hafna ‘Straight and Crooked thinking’:aqrah jew xi haga simili.U thallatx l-Ingliz mal-Malti ghax turi minn fejn int!
Daphne:
Not sure what the link was for. To confirm what I said, or? (sorry, feeling a bit monday today)
[Daphne – I thought people might not bother looking it up for themselves, so yes, to confirm what you said….]
[Daphne: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2872/is_/ai_71563378%5D
The problem in such countries (we’re in Asia now) is that women’s groups have to battle against old customs and traditions which are totally unacceptable to most of the educated Western World, and against an exclusively male religious establishment which fights every inch of the way to keep such traditions in force.
The efforts of these women are to be applauded. They have a difficult battle on their hands, and every little step forward they make in favour of, and on behalf of, these child brides is a great victory indeed.
[Daphne – Yes, and this is why people who think like Sybil does are so upsettingly wrong-headed. The practices she describes are not accepted. They are perceived to be wrong at a deep human level, and people don’t need the law to explain this because they know it. It is just another example of the way the strong take advantage of the weak and abuse them . Given half a chance, and permitted to do so by the law and ‘religious elders’ lots of men would be out there having sex with barely pubescent girls. It’s not any different with Maltese men: only years of the law and social development have kept this behaviour in check. Just to give you an example from ancient history: we think of the Carthaginians as ‘those people who sacrificed their children to appease the gods’. What were they, we think, inhuman savages? But there is at least one contemporary account of how the mothers screamed and struggled to save their children, how they had to be forcibly sedated, and how they went mad afterwards. Unfortunately, there is a pattern throughout history right up to the present – it’s always the women and children who get it in the neck.]
[Daphne – The point at issue, Moggy, is that it takes a deliberate act to get infected: having sex.]
Without a doubt.
[Daphne – If you don’t want to get infected, don’t have unprotected sex with strangers. We all know that, but apparently, plenty of people in this country don’t – hence the prevalence of what used to be called venereal disease among the increased number of patients seen by the Boffa Hospital clinic.]
Exactly. Sex with strangers is always a risk, be they Maltese or foreigners of every race, creed and colour.
However, it is also interesting to consider the relative risks. Sub-Saharan Africa is facing an epidemic of HIV quite unrivalled in the rest of the World. It is very sad, but true.
Daphne
Sybil is right:I worked and lived in two arab countries for 10 years and the practices she talks about are all true;it is also true that it is the women and the female children that suffer most.
Did you hear about the practice of rich old gulf arabs who go to india or pakistan and marry for one night an underage virgin:in the morning they divorce her and compensate the family with an generous amount.
Did you hear about the practice of female circumcision in the rich gulf arab states:talk to the indian lady doctors who are told to do it or else.
I can tell you a dozen other things that happen in progressive arab states:imagine what happens in the others.
You have to live there for years to be able to find out what they never talk about.
[Daphne – What you are talking about here is not culture but abuse. Read my other comments on the subject. If Maltese men could get away with doing the same thing, they would do it. It’s not culture that stops them, but the law. And sometimes, as we have seen, not even the law can do that.]
Moggy: And people who have unprotected sex with strangers are the ones who bump up the rates of infection among the wider population. I’m talking about the statistics, and not about spreading infection itself. In other words, if you’re going to have sex with someone who’s been around a bit, your risk of infection is higher than the actual incidence of disease in the wider population.
Daphne
Maltese men have daughters as well and most of them are not only law abiding but decent hardworking people who protect their wives and daughters from all forms of sexual exploitation:stop talking about men as if they are all prospective rapists.With your accusations you are on the way to emasculating all males as is happening in most western countries where most male teenagers do not know or are confused what is expected of them in society;they live in mostly single parent(female)families where the father role model is absent.
In a matriarchal dominated society,things will worse.
[Daphne – Supporter of Josie Muscat, are you? ‘Maltese men have daughters’ – wake up; it’s the 21st century. Women are no longer their father’s chattels. As for your comments about the emasculation of males….don’t confuse the emasculation of males, whatever that is, with the absence of a positive male role model in a boy’s life. They are two separate issues. Emanuel Muscat’s nightmare: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_of_the_50_Foot_Woman%5D
Daphne
You could at least learn something from Dr.Josie Muscat if you care to read his last article in the Independent of last weekend:it is extremely balanced,does not offend anyone
and if it was no good it would not be published by the newspaper that you dominate so much:I buy it every day!
[Daphne – So I was right; you are a supporter of Josie Muscat. On the contrary, the newspapers publish lots of rubbish articles that come free of charge. It’s cheaper than paying professional writers.]
Emanuel Muscat: “does not offend anyone?” Says who?
Emanuel Muscat: u billi nghidlek x’jisimni x’se taghmel? Jien ma jimpurtanix min int u jekk jismekx Emanuel Muscat jew Charlie tat-te. Li jimpurtani hu li int min int, bl-argumenti bazwija li qed iggib, qed turi li int bniedem injurant.
It is true that there is a high level of AIDS in many parts of Africa and that, in many places, there are sexual and other abuses. This fact is stressed by racists in order to claim that “Africans” are immoral, promiscuous, violent, rapists and, above all, diseased. It happens elsewhere and is happening also in Malta; the idea is to scare the local population into rejecting immigrants and pressuring government to “do something” (meaning, send them away). It is clearly the reasoning behind John Meilak’s post: if we mingle with Africans we will get the “deadly maladies which to us may be fatal”.
In reality, rape and sexual abuse are not part of the culture of any African country. I am no sociologist but my impression is that such crimes occur on a large scale whenever, because of natural disasters or armed conflicts, society breaks down into anarchy. We have seen it happening in other parts of the world, such as Bosnia during the civil war.
Promiscuity does exist but no more than in other societies such as the US, for example, and AIDS is much more widespread in Africa than in America because of poor hygiene and health facilities rather than for any other reason. When we disapprove of Africans because they have unprotected sex we forget that they cannot just stroll down to the pharmacy or supermarket round the corner to buy a packet of condoms and cannot go to a government health centre and have a free check-up whenever they feel like it. Because of the dangerous and precarious conditions in which they find themselves, many subsist one day at a time and their outlook on life is necessarily different to ours, as long as they remain in that environment.
My point is, however, that immigrants are usually fleeing from such extreme situations and have no intention of replicating in Malta the very horrors that have forced them to leave their homes. Even the so-called economic migrants come from regions that suffer from unimaginable (for us) poverty and are eager to live a normal life, supporting their families with honest work.
The strategy employed by racist movements is to imply that if a person looks different and ‘unusual’ on the outside, then they must be different on the inside too with values and morals being lower than ours. They also hint at the medieval superstition that disease is a punishment from God so, if there is an AIDS epidemic in Africa “they must have brought it upon themselves”.
When Maltese are accused of being racist, it is because they promote these types of argument, not because they express concern at the immigration issue or because they are patriots. The truth is that there is no need to panic because of immigration and it is, to say the least, stupid to be afraid of black people.
“[Daphne – Sybil, thallatx il-hass mal-bass. What you are talking about is a failure of the law or the absence of the law. That does not mean that these things are considered right or acceptable in the places where they happen.”
“Emanuel Muscat Thursday, 9 October 1134hrs
Daphne
Sybil is right:I worked and lived in two arab countries for 10 years and the practices she talks about are all true;it is also true that it is the women and the female children that suffer most.
Did you hear about the practice of rich old gulf arabs who go to india or pakistan and marry for one night an underage virgin:in the morning they divorce her and compensate the family with an generous amount.
Did you hear about the practice of female circumcision in the rich gulf arab states:talk to the indian lady doctors who are told to do it or else.
I can tell you a dozen other things that happen in progressive arab states:imagine what happens in the others.
You have to live there for years to be able to find out what they never talk about.”
“[Daphne – What you are talking about here is not culture but abuse.”
With all due respect Daphne , your personal opinion and interpretation of what goes on in some countries has nothing whatsoever to do with what actually happens in such countries. It is most certainly the culture and tradition in such countries that allows and institutionalizes such practices. Foreigners who have actually lived and worked for several years in such countries would most certainly not agree with you in the least.
I refer you again to a link like ,
http://www.geocities.com/islampencereleri3/sayings_of_ayatollah_khomeini.htm depicting some sayings in Khomeini’s book “Tahrirolvasyleh” , always keeping in mind the stature and standing of such a personage in various parts of the world ,not just his native land.
What passes off as the norm in some countries, is illegal, criminal and an abomination in the rest of the world. If that 61 year old Maltese man , the subject of this discussion , lived elsewhere , he would not have been charged with any illegality . As it is , he lives in the EU where such acts are illegal and for which he got his just desserts.
“[Daphne – Sybil, thallatx il-hass mal-bass. What you are talking about is a failure of the law or the absence of the law”
Not quite . It is not “the failure or absence of law” ,but simply the end result of a formal and recognized legal system based on what is written in certain holy books. “Marriage”,”divorce”, “wife”, “human rights”, “tolerance”, “peace” etc have different interpretations in certain parts of the world as they are viewed from a perspective that is based on cultures, traditions and beliefs that are different from those of the west . That , is not “hass mal bass” , but a fact of life that we all have to open our eyes to , no matter how politically incorrect or incmprehensible it may sound.
[Daphne – Sybil, you really have to stop posting your comments in this confusing way. If you want to refer to something someone else has written, there’s no need to duplicate the post. Didn’t they make you do precis at school?]
[Corinne: Moggy: And people who have unprotected sex with strangers are the ones who bump up the rates of infection among the wider population. I’m talking about the statistics, and not about spreading infection itself. In other words, if you’re going to have sex with someone who’s been around a bit, your risk of infection is higher than the actual incidence of disease in the wider population.]
Yes. But it also depends, does it not, on the prevalence of a disease within a given population? If the prevalence is 30% (and no, Antoine Vella, this is not racist, wishful thinking, but sad fact), then the risk of encountering an infected individual is much greater than the risk taken when the prevalence is less than 1%.
I think that there are two reason for the high incidence of AIDS/ HIV infection in Sub-Saharan Africa. The first is that the virus has been around within that continent for much longer than it has been on other continents. Do not forget that the virus is supposed to have originated when it jumped species from other primates to humans, and sadly, this is thought to have happened on the African continent.
Secondly, the traditional sexual practices of African tribes happens to be different to those which we normally practice – and I am not saying this because I am in any way biased against these people, but because it is true. These sexual practices, combined with a lack of education, an aversion to using condoms, and certain mind-boggling beliefs (a common one, for example, is that sleeping with a virgin will cure one of AIDS) have contributed towards the high incidence in many African countries. Poor medical practices may have also contributed.
In no way is it these people’s fault that they find themselves in this precarious situation – their customs, their traditions, the standard of their medical care and lack of education are no fault of their own). It is a very unhappy state of affairs, with which they need all the help that they can get. However, it is foolish to deny facts which are well-established and undeniable.
Of course, one cannot stress enough that having sex with ALL strangers, especially those who have slept around, is risky business, and that if one chooses to do it, one must protect oneself.
Sybil
There are many aspects of Islam which I find unacceptable and I’m certainly no admirer of that religion. All the same, I’m uneasy with such an obviously Islamophobic website as the one in your link. It uses the sly tactic of pretending to be neutral but then presenting a lot of material that subtly or openly denigrates Islam.
I’m not saying that everything in that website is false but it’s certainly very biased and I wouldn’t rely on it as my main source of information.
No one denies that abuses of all kinds occur in many regions including the western world. In certain African and Asian countries such practices seem to be tolerated but it is because, for a variety of reasons, the local populations are unable or afraid to denounce the crimes, not because they consider them part of their culture.
Moggy: The incidence of AIDS in populations in sub-Saharan Africa cannot be automatically equated with the incidence of AIDs among immigrants from Africa in Malta. I’d hazard a guess that the incidence of AIDs is far lower among those who have successfully completed a difficult journey.
Why do you assume that all the people who arrive here practise the traditions you mention? You’re basing your assessment on what you read in the media. The equivalent of that is someone who reads Malta’s newspapers concluding that you or I are 61-year olds who have raped and beaten our girlfriend’s daughter for several years.
[Daphne – Or that we’re all addicted to heroin and cocaine and sex with strangers several times a week, which is pretty much the propaganda put about in Sybil’s favourite countries, the flip-side of what she’s doing here.]
Moggy: It isn’t foolish to point out that the immigrants who arrive in Malta constitute a statistical population that is not necessarily identical to the statistical populations that make up the groups you mention. Take your assumption of a lack of education, for example. That is not a generalised characteristic. Many of the immigrants here are better educated that the ‘send them back’ brigade.
We agree on one point – if you (and I don’t mean you personally) are going to sleep around indiscriminately, then it’s your own obligation to protect yourself.
http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20081010/local/immigrant-arrivals-exceed-local-birth-rate
anyone seen that? especially the comments…
[Daphne – It’s unbelievable that just when things were calming down and people had moved on to other perceived problems, the Emigrants’ Commission, of all people, come out with this statement, completely oblivious to the fact that it would inevitably be interpreted in terms of black African Muslims outnumbering ‘white’ European Christians. The comments beneath are shockingly racist, and betray the fact that it’s not the numbers that are worrying people, but the colour and the perceived religion. As for the ‘send them back’ comments – are these people really advocating breaking the law as a solution to breaking the law? And approving of Italy’s way of dealing with immigrants – I am speechless. Italy, a country with a recent history of appalling fascism, with the fascist legacy still in parliament, recently featured in the international news for its scandalous harassment of the Roma people (gypsies, not necessarily Romans). For god’s sake.]
D: The small-mindedness would be funny if it weren’t so depressing. Did you see the comment about ‘blacks’ outnumbers ‘whites’ in Malta, so let’s please send some to Gozo? I didn’t know Maltese people (including people from Gozo) were classed as ‘white’. We’re usually classed as Wops when we travel northwards.
[Daphne – Nobody ever wonders why, when films made here and set in the Middle East, Turkey or North Africa require extras, they just call them in from the surrounding towns and villages. They wouldn’t do that if we looked like Vikings, or even like Italians.]
@ Moggy:
If the Maltese are not promiscuous, and have protected sex with few (or one, in my case) partner, the disease would be contained. Even if all African immigrants had AIDS (which is surely not the case), the risk to people like me would still be zero.
Having a “free willy” has its disadvantages ;)
You also say that “the traditional sexual practices of African tribes happens to be different to those which we normally practice”. Are you suggesting that the sexual “missionary position” is less risky? May we be spared from such dangerous superstition, if you believe this is so!
[Corinne: Why do you assume that all the people who arrive here practise the traditions you mention? You’re basing your assessment on what you read in the media. The equivalent of that is someone who reads Malta’s newspapers concluding that you or I are 61-year olds who have raped and beaten our girlfriend’s daughter for several years.]
Seeing that such customs and traditions are so wide-spread (although they vary from country to country), why do you presume that a good percentage of them don’t? No fault of their own, of course.
Secondly, if the incidence of infection in many coutries is extremely high (over 30% in urban areas of many African countries – and these are the people who find themselves in Malta), then why should we presume that the incidence of infection in the group coming to Malta is any lower?
Of course, on an individual level, one cannot generalise. We are talking about percentage rates in a population here, and not on an individual level. Yes, of course there are Africans who are well educated, and who even practise safe sex, yes of course there are individual Africans who are a safer bet than Maltese people who are in a high risk groups, but AS A POPULATION (and it is important to understand this) the incidence of infection is much, much higher, and the likelihood is that this is reflected in the incidence of HIV infection in the group which has settles here.
Of course, this is no reason to disrespect these people, no reason to ostracise them, and no reason to behave as though we were living in the Middle Ages with Bubonic Plague lurking round every corner. As you know, you can only get HIV through intimate physical contact or blood contact, and it is not an easily contracted virus – just compare it to common cold or influenza!
And finally, please… I don’t depend on the media for my info., especially NOT the Maltese media, and more especially NOT biased Maltese media. I prefer looking up info for myself, plus looking up the relevant statistics, in addition to relying on my knowledge of epidemiology. All in all, I believe that this makes it possible for me to get an accurate enough picture of what is going on.
You might wish to browse around here:
http://pathmicro.med.sc.edu/lecture/hiv5.htm
[Moggy: It isn’t foolish to point out that the immigrants who arrive in Malta constitute a statistical population that is not necessarily identical to the statistical populations that make up the groups you mention. Take your assumption of a lack of education, for example. That is not a generalised characteristic. Many of the immigrants here are better educated that the ’send them back’ brigade.]
Not necessarily identical – you are right there. However, probably close. In our favour is the fact that most of the immigrants who land here are male, whereas in Africa up to 65% of those infected with HIV are female. Against us is the fact that most probably come from urban areas, and are not right out of the heart of tribal Africa. The urban areas of Africa are the areas richest in HIV infection. If it is true that a great percentage of these people are from a certain background and of a certain education, then that, too might contribute to a lower percentage of infection within the group which has settled in Malta.
“Secondly, if the incidence of infection in many coutries is extremely high (over 30% in urban areas of many African countries – and these are the people who find themselves in Malta), then why should we presume that the incidence of infection in the group coming to Malta is any lower?”
The answer is fairly obvious. People with aids or hiv would have a much lower chance to survive the trip to Malta than a healthy person. I could not tell you how big the difference would be, but it’s fairly safe to assume it would have an impact.
[Kenneth Cassar: If the Maltese are not promiscuous, and have protected sex with few (or one, in my case) partner, the disease would be contained. Even if all African immigrants had AIDS (which is surely not the case), the risk to people like me would still be zero.]
Certainly.
[Kenneth Cassar: Having a “free willy” has its disadvantages ;)]
Without a doubt, you’re right.
[Kenneth Cassar: You also say that “the traditional sexual practices of African tribes happens to be different to those which we normally practice”. Are you suggesting that the sexual “missionary position” is less risky? May we be spared from such dangerous superstition, if you believe this is so!]
Kenneth, don’t be ridiculous. I was not speaking sexual positions here. The sexual practices I was talking of involve the acceptance of multiple partners, multiple wives, certain beliefs such as one, for example, which goes that having sex with virgins can cure one of certain ailments (including AIDS), the aversion to the usage of condoms, or the lack of education which helps one realise that condoms protect one against HIV infection and others, a high incidence of genital Herpes, the fact that female circumcision is widespread (yes, if a female is circumcised/ mutilated it makes her more prone to contract HIV), the fact that many males are UNcircumcised (the opposite is true of circumcised males), the high incidence of breast-feeding (HIV can be passed to infants in mother’s milk………
Shall I go on?
[Pat: The answer is fairly obvious. People with aids or hiv would have a much lower chance to survive the trip to Malta than a healthy person. I could not tell you how big the difference would be, but it’s fairly safe to assume it would have an impact.]
I am sorry to say, Pat, that you are totally wrong here, and things are not as obvious as they seem (to you).
People with AIDS (that is people who have developed the full blown disease) would probably find it difficult to make such a strenuous journey, and how!
However, things are totally different when it comes to people who are only infected with HIV, yet have not developed the symptoms of AIDS. People with HIV (HIV positive) can live in a totally asymptomatic state for years on end (even more than ten years at times), and would be perfectly capable of going through with the journey to Europe.
“Antoine Vella Friday, 10 October 1145hrs
Sybil
There are many aspects of Islam which I find unacceptable and I’m certainly no admirer of that religion. All the same, I’m uneasy with such an obviously Islamophobic website as the one in your link. It uses the sly tactic of pretending to be neutral but then presenting a lot of material that subtly or openly denigrates Islam.
I’m not saying that everything in that website is false but it’s certainly very biased and I wouldn’t rely on it as my main source of information.
No one denies that abuses of all kinds occur in many regions including the western world. In certain African and Asian countries such practices seem to be tolerated but it is because, for a variety of reasons, the local populations are unable or afraid to denounce the crimes, not because they consider them part of their culture.”
Trivializing a discussion by shooting the messeger (in this case a link)by bandying around the Islamophobic tag is not very convincing especally since the particular quotes attributed to Ayatollah Khomeini from his book mentioned in http://www.geocities.com/islampencereleri3/sayings_of_ayatollah_khomeini.htm , and which are based on what is written in the holy books of his particular religious persuation are genuine enough and refer to what is normal behaviour in that particular society in that part of the world.These also have to be evaluated in the context of his stature and influence, not only in his native land but world wide as far as the followers of his religious creed is concerned.
You are of course right as well when you remark that “In certain African and Asian countries such practices seem to be tolerated but it is because, for a variety of reasons, the local populations are unable or afraid to denounce the crimes”. It is very difficult to denounce or criticise something that is anyway, perfectly legitimate and lawful according to laws of that particular land.,especially so when you also have other laws called blasphemy or apostasy laws that bring on your head a fatwa if you so much as question them.
Finally it is worth mentioning as well that some African traditions,which we , in the west view as barbaric or even criminal, and which pertain to certain particular tribes (of which there are countless)date back even as far back as ancient Pharaonic times and have nothing whatsoever to do with Islam (some are even forbidden in Islamic culture).
“[Daphne – It’s unbelievable that just when things were calming down and people had moved on to other perceived problems, the Emigrants’ Commission, of all people, come out with this statement, completely oblivious to the fact that it would inevitably be interpreted in terms of black African Muslims outnumbering ‘white’ European Christians. The comments beneath are shockingly racist”.
There are some who would still persist in refusing to see the writing on the wall. What the emigrants’ commission have pointed out is obvious for everyone living in this part of the world and in the north African areas where highly well organized human traffickers are making a fortune with the assistance of the authorities in those countries.
“[Daphne – Yes, and this is why people who think like Sybil does are so upsettingly wrong-headed. The practices she describes are not accepted. They are perceived to be wrong at a deep human level, and people don’t need the law to explain this because they know it. It is just another example of the way the strong take advantage of the weak and abuse them . Given half a chance, and permitted to do so by the law and ‘religious elders’ lots of men would be out there having sex with barely pubescent girls.”
It is an undeniable fact that the founder of one particular creed did just that., and in so doing., set up a legitimate precedent for his followers to emulate. And that, is a fact of life that either you nor me can deny, wether we like it or not. Same as it is a fact of life that a raped woman gets stoned for her efforts to seek justice , not unless she can produce four men that will testify in her favour and that , furthermore, if she kills or injures her assailant to defend her honour, she gets hanged for her efforts. This is happening daily in a sizable part of the world. Trivialize the issue as much as you wish , but that is the reality of life .
[Daphne – I don’t trivialise the issue. I merely lack patience with your ignorant equation of Islam with extremism. The fact that there are people like Paul Vincenti around here in Malta, or people like Tony Mifsud who want restrictions on the free movement of pregnant women, does not mean that all Catholics are extremist oppressors of women. The fact that some Christian groups are extreme and Puritanical does not mean that all Christians are nuts. The difference is that in the west we have something called democracy which, through secularism, controls the excesses of the extremists who are naturally attracted to religion as a conduit for the darker forces in their nature. The people living in Islamic states are not so lucky. To draw a parallel, remove democracy and secular law from the equation, and Malta is equally at risk of coming under the control of religious nut-cases and the extremists of the Dun Gorg Preca cult. Given a free rein, they will ban contraception, make sex outside marriage a criminal act, return adultery to the Criminal Code, and God help homosexuals. People who think as you do, in their frenzy at running down all countries where most people are Muslims, conveniently ignore the Muslims we have so much in common with genetically, historically and culturally – those just 150 miles away in Tunis, where the women run around scantily dressed with men and everyone drinks alcohol, proving that it is not Islam that’s the problem, but fanatics who manipulate people through religion.]
By an amazing coincidence, Sybil, Google has just alerted me to the fact that an international women’s rights forum has picked up my articles on Paul Vincenti’s and Tony Mifsud’s plans for pregnant women and posted them with links to this blog….along with news of oppression of women in your favourite African and Middle Eastern countries. Check out this link.
http://womensphere.wordpress.com/2008/10/09/keeping-pregnant-women-under-house-arrest-in-malta/
The Emigrants’ Commission’s report is definitely a case of ‘what were they thinking?’. Most of the comments posted by the Times’ readers are a sad reflection of the poor level of education in our country. Incidentally, I’ve always wondered how – if at all – our schools commemorate the EU’s Holocaust Day. Have any of our public or private schools ever asked students to read Primo Levi or Ann Frank? I have my doubts. For sure I never heard of the Holocaust when I was at school (and I went to a Church school).
[Daphne – No, because you’re about my age from what I gather and we were at the tail-end of the ‘Jews killed Jesus’ approach to Catholicism. My mother’s prayer book for the Seven Visits on Good Friday when we were children contained a reference to the ‘cruel Jews’ which was supposed to be read at every church visit – seven times in one day. She would make a point of refusing to read it, telling us kids ‘this is bad and wrong – Jews are not cruel’. Before we had racism, we had religion-sponsored anti-Semitism. We weren’t taught about the Holocaust at school, either. I learned about it at home. I imagine that those girls who grew up in different sorts of homes and who never bothered to find out for themselves never learned anything about it at all.]
@ Marku: No, we never learnt about the Holocaust at (Church) school. I, too, learnt about it at home, thanks to my avid reading, and thanks to the fact that my mother had a few books about the subject on her bookshelves. I was horrified by what I read, and up to this very day, I buy books about the subject.
If you read Anne Frank, try and find her Tales from the Secret Annexe. Some very sweet stories written by the girl herself. She was such an intelligent girl. On reading them one finds oneself silently weeping for the waste of a life which was so promising.
Daphne: We are indeed about the same age and I can easily relate to what you were saying. What really gets to me is that even in this day and age there seems to be no effort to improve what kind of history is being taught at a primary and secondary level. To be fair to the teachers, they are not finding much help during their own training. There is in fact very little effort to address such important historical themes at university level. The History Department’s courses are disproportionately focused on Maltese and European history. Even then, several non-Maltese history courses deal with traditional themes such as Renaissance and Reformation or Europe between the World Wars. Now I understand that an academic trained as a medievalist cannot be expected to teach the Holocaust or the Chinese Cultural Revolution, but at least there should be some effort to, where possible, incorporate these themes into pre-existing courses or even to hire someone who specializes in non-European history.
Daphne
I have a lot of admiration for the jewish people but you also need to understand the reasons why things happen to certain people:the jews have almost always done away with their so called prophets either by killing them or have others kill them and they were the first to adhere to the ONE true GOD while all other peoples had many gods.They did kill Jesus Christ and since Christianity became the dominant religon they have been suffering for it ever since.They do not integrate well with other people which has its good and bad sides to it.They also tend to form their own mafia which everybody does when he feels threatened but this eventually alienated further more or less all europeans and we all know about the holocaust and the purges they suffered in many countries.
It was not difficult to read about the holocaust even in the sixties:I remember reading Hitler’s Ovens by Comer Clarke at 16 and about the japanese atrocities in other books.
[Daphne – Why am I not surprised that this is your view?]
moggy
“But it also depends, does it not, on the prevalence of a disease within a given population? If the prevalence is 30% (and no, Antoine Vella, this is not racist, wishful thinking, but sad fact)…”
I did not say that it is racist to mention the incidence of AIDS in Africa or any other fact. What is racist is whether the information being quoted is correct and whether it is used to justify discrimination.
Where did you get your information that one out of every three Africans suffers from AIDS? According to UNAIDS, the incidence of HIV (not AIDS) in sub-Saharan Africa is 6%, still higher than the world average of <1% but a lot less than your 30%. (http://www.unaids.org/en/KnowledgeCentre/HIVData/GlobalReport/2008/2008_Global_report.asp – Chapter 2 Tab. 2.3)
This is how misunderstandings are needlessly caused: when a person states “facts” based on hearsay, without checking them out first.
Daphne – Wasn’t there an entrepreneur-turned politician who went on holiday to Holland, and came back impressed after seeing Anne Frank’s house? – The fool thought that the “clever” Dutch people created the house as a tourist attraction following the success of the book entitled “The Diary of Anne Frank”, which he thought was fiction.
[Antoine Vella: Where did you get your information that one out of every three Africans suffers from AIDS? According to UNAIDS, the incidence of HIV (not AIDS) in sub-Saharan Africa is 6%, still higher than the world average of <1% but a lot less than your 30%. (http://www.unaids.org/en/KnowledgeCentre/HIVData/GlobalReport/2008/2008_Global_report.asp – Chapter 2 Tab. 2.3)
This is how misunderstandings are needlessly caused: when a person states “facts” based on hearsay, without checking them out first.]
Not hearsay at all. The prevalence in urbanised areas, not surprisingly, is higher than the over-all incidence, which involves lots of people who live in tribes and in remote regions. In urbanised areas the incidence is much higher (and this varies from country to country), sometimes even surpassing 30%, with percentages of mothers booking in for antenatal care sometimes even surpassing 50% (varies from country to country).
Now the people who come here are obviously from urban areas of their countries, and not straight out of tribal Africa – hence from the areas where the incidence is rather high (again, bear in mind that this varies from country to country).
Read around and you will find the relevant statistics and graphs.
[Emanuel Muscat – They did kill Jesus Christ and since Christianity became the dominant religon they have been suffering for it ever since.]
A pretty lame point of view, if you do not mind me saying so. One instance when Jews suffered greatly, and when it certainly wasn’t due to the fact that they “killed Jesus Christ” was during the Holocaust. Do you really think that Hilter ordered the death and suffering of millions of European Jews because he was a Christian? Do (or indeed, should) real Christians really act that way? He did it because he was a fanatic – fanatical about creating a perfect Aryan race. Just as fanatical as people who profess other creeds are when they do unspeakable things in the name (but only in the name) of their religion.
It was definitely not the Christian religion (or the fact that Christ was killed by the Jews) which drove Hitler to do what he did, but fanaticism and a pretty hefty tendency toward psychopathy and megalomania.
Emanuel: boy do I not want to meet you. You are racist, xenophobic, Christian fundamentalist and anti-Semitic on top of that. I bet you were doing somersaults when Josie came along.