My, even consciences can run with the hare and hunt with the hounds
Somebody took away her conscience and won't give it back until she stops crying.
Politicians’ consciences, wracked already by divorce, have been tortured again by IVF.
The point at issue is whether or not to freeze embryos. The choice is between freezing them (a sin), freezing sperm and eggs separately but not embryos (not a sin), implanting them all at once in the womb and having to deal with yet more sets of twins and triplets if not actually quads (not a sin, for some reason, but makes doctors at the Special Care Baby Unit very, very cross), or disposing of them (a sin).
Meanwhile, we are reminded that the same politicians who refused us permission to divorce (a sin, which creates social disaster and is terrible for the children and wives abandoned in the gutter to starve) they had no similar problems with allowing ‘pogguti’, one or both technically married to somebody else, to have access to free IVF treatment at the state hospital under the new law.
So, let me just get this straight: the state would not allow ‘pogguti’ to divorce their spouses and marry each other (sin, social disaster, etc), but it planned to give them taxpayer-funded IVF treatment to help them have ‘bastard’ children.
“That’s a nice conscience you’ve got there, sir.”
“Yes, it fell off the back of a lorry.”
Here’s The Times, today:
The parliamentary committee had suggested IVF should be made available for heterosexual couples in stable relationships – primarily because Malta did not yet have divorce legislation and there were many couples who were in a stable relationship but prevented from marrying.
However, while restricting the procedure to married couples, since Maltese divorce would only be granted after four years of separation the cohabitation, law could provide a legal framework by which to allow IVF for couples who are not yet eligible to get married.
——–
And of course, all of this conveniently overlooks and bypasses the fact that the Roman Catholic Church – yes, the very same one that teaches divorce is a grave sin – describes IVF and related practices as gravely evil acts.
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The twist and turns in this political drama are getting better than the ones in Eastenders.
I can imagine parliament closing to dum dum dum dum durudum.
http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20110614/local/pm-planned-early-election-had-opposition-s-honoraria-motion-been-approved.370581
Will this man please shut up.
Abracadabra. The square wheel becomes a trapezoid.
http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20110613/cartoons/Cartoon-of-the-day.370259
A well-informed conscience is no substitute for a well-informed mind.
Is this a Monty Python sketch?
dum dum dum dum durudum….nah, more like the Benny Hill theme tune.
This begs the question: are they all just high, instead of high and mighty?
I feel somewhat disadvantaged because I don’t have any concept of sin.
I don’t know what sins are or how they feel.
I know it’s a church thing but apart from that I am lost.
I feel like I am missing out on something, seriously.
“I don’t know what sins are or how they feel.”
In general they feel pretty awesome.
You’re obviously missing a conscience. Do not despair.
http://www.wikihow.com/Get-a-Conscience
Incredible! http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20110613/local/archbishop.370380
I wonder how many of the ‘No’ voters actually live according to their so-loudly-professed faith? How many actually go to Mass every Sunday and day of obligation? How many receive confession regularly?
How many refrain or have refrained from pre-marital or extra-marital sex? How many refrain/have refrained from using ‘unnatural’ means of birth control? How many are willing to forgive others for any wrong done to them?
In all honesty that’s one of the most sensible things he has said in a long time. Time to just get over it.
“I cannot afford to climb all those stairs (the Palace staircase leading to the House of Representatives) just for two minutes to say ‘hello’ and leave. During that time I can do more important things: be it politics, my medical profession or other things.” – Nationalist MP Stephen Spiteri
If it is so then I hope he has returned all the payments he got for attending parliament when in fact he wasn’t there.
We common mortals have to sign in when we get to the workplace. I don’t expect members of parliament to do likewise.
However, it is high time that members of parliament get payed only for when they actually attend AND stay for the session.
They should be an example to us all in their adherance to the rules. Any worker absenting him/herself without justification can now say ” I’m doing a Stephen Spiteri” .
There is a lift at the Palace! But Dr. Spiteri clearly is not very familiar with the building (or was too busy to notice).
“Other Things?” What did he mean? suggestions welcomed.
But he finds time to sip whisky and crack jokes with Jose Herrera at the Kazin (Malti)! Oh yes he does!
If the PN is being run by somebody who can tolerate statements like the one above from its members, I am not surprised that it is in such a mess.
We are in dire need of strong leadership, and it is the duty of all the members (including myself) to press for a change. It is now nearly too late. The harm has already been done, but we must contain the damage now.
If we don’t take action, we will not only lose the next election, but I fear we will see our party break up.
“I do a lot of work. If you see the media, it shows how much I am doing. I attend many events and functions on the minister’s behalf… opening conferences, attending discussions. I liaise with the private secretary and the staff of the ministry.” – My, my. Some work this man does.
My, my, that’s a lot of work. He must be really tired. We pity him and offer our sympathy, but when does he do his parliamentary work?
Daphne, I think it changed –
http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20110613/local/-Conscience-problems-on-IVF-solved-Gonzi.370310
I think the PM may be misinformed. I just read the article provided by the link and it says that IVF will be a treatment that will be provided only for married couples.
I do not think that this is possible. I am quite sure that discrimination between married and unmarried people is not possible in providing IVF treatment. The fundamental right to form a family is not, in a secular society, based on the precept of marriage.
What the PM probably means is that state-funded IVF will be provided only to married couples. This does not stop any other couple from seeking IVF treatment privately and paying for it.
And since no one can stop unmarried couples from doing so once legislation to permit IVF has been promulgated, then one cannot discriminate between IVF for married couples or unmarried ones even when it comes to the state coffers.
This is a flawed mentality that irks me immensely.I shall be writing in greater detail about this.
Stephen Spiteri then should not have presented himself as a candidate knowing full well what his duties would entail.
I still think some MPs are taking us all for a ride or else they are all looking down at us common mortals. The irony of it all is that we put them there by electing them.
Of course he is not taking us for a ride. He just prefers the Kazin to the Parlament… I mean, what’s wrong with that? He’s still in the company of MPs at the Kazin.
Qiskom in-naghag ta’ Bendu , jekk Daphne taghzel lil xi hadd bhala mira, hallikom tlabalbu kontriha!
Qatt ma smajtu kif Joe Mizzi jaghajjat “Kworum” xi jkun gara?
Ha nghidilkom jien “Tlett kwarti tal-parlament jew iktar ma’ jkunx prezenti ghad-diskussjoni.”
Skond ir-‘ragunar’ taghkom dawn m’ghandhomx jivvutaw? Hemmx xi hadd minnkom ukoll li jrid li dawn il -Membri Parlamentari ma jahdmux privat ?
Jien. Jien ma rridx li l-parlamentari jaghmlu xoghol iehor barra dak tal-parlament. Malta hi l-unika pajjiz fid-Dinja fejn l-ghola istituzzjoni f’demokrazija hi part-time… lanqas, ghax xoghol part-time trid tmur xorta. Parlament skond l-aptit. Parlament taparsi.
This conscience saga is verging on the ridiculous now …
If I hear the word ‘conscience’ one more time, I shall scream.
David II, You can scream as much as you like, but you should know that:
“The human voice can never reach the distance that is covered by the still small voice of conscience.” – Mahatma Gandhi.
‘And of course, all of this conveniently overlooks and bypasses the fact that the Roman Catholic Church – yes, the very same one that teaches divorce is a grave sin – describes IVF and related practices as gravely evil acts.’
Well, of course it should overlook and bypass what the Church says and I should hope so too. Frankly I’m a little sceptical of this new-found tendency towards Bible-bashing among our MPs.
The strictures of the Catholic Church are for us, practising Catholics to worry about. Obedience to our faith is our choice.
If you (not you as such, Daphne, just your readers who tie themselves up in knots of rage and then are not of the faith) don’t believe, then ignore the Church. Why should you let what it says worry you? Do you let the contents of the Koran exercise you in a similar fashion?
[Pat Zahra – If you (not you as such, Daphne, just your readers who tie themselves up in knots of rage and then are not of the faith) don’t believe, then ignore the Church. Why should you let what it says worry you? Do you let the contents of the Koran exercise you in a similar fashion?]
The answer is simple. What the Church says and does, effects (or may effect) each one of us, regardless of our faith (or lack of faith). The content of the Koran does not excercise us in a similar fashion only because in Malta, Muslims are a negligible (no offense intended) minority, and so Islam’s effects locally are negligible.
Maybe Eddie Fenech Adami would care to be be as vociferous on this matter as he has been on the divorce issue.
Daphne, why is it that the other part of the equation is necessarily to sin or not to sin and consequently whether the church has any influence (which it evidently does not)?
In the UK, for example, where sin is a sexy word and lifestyle the other part of the equation in the discussion of whether to freeze or not to freeze embryos was primarily ethical with issues such as designer babies, human organs surrogate profits and the like.
I may understand that most local MPs cannot delve into such complications and take cover under sin but a healthy discussion goes beyond that.
From: http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20110613/local/-Conscience-problems-on-IVF-solved-Gonzi.370310
‘Dr Gonzi stressed yesterday that the interests of children should be seen as the priority in all of this. He would not allow IVF to be used for children to be raised in an environment that would “spell disaster for them”, he said without elaborating.’
I wonder whether they intend to submit married couples who apply for IVF treatment to some sort of parent adequacy testing, as they do with applicants for adoption.
How will they determine whether the environment the prospective parents can provide would “spell disaster” for the children?
The language used reflects the frame of mind: Gonzi, who has turned himself into a sort of prophet of doom, seems to be more concerned about what would “spell disaster” as opposed to what would provide adequate parenting.
U Giezu Giez, vera tfixxkinna f’saqajna big-time man..
Ma nistax naqbad kap u kuda. Ghadna inkaxxkru fuq il-kwistjoni tad-divorzju (meta kienet facli hafna x`ghandhom jaghmlu, wara ir-referendum), u diga polemika ohra.
U donnha qatt ma naslu imkien qeghdin. U il-kuxjenza tizfen it-twist fin-nofs. Veru xejn sew.
Jekk hawn haga li tirritani hafna hi il- gideb. Ma nistax ghal-min jghid il-kliem b`iehor u jwegga` kemm il-Bambin halaq nies. F`dik ic-cirkostanza biss jien qatt semmejt il-kelma “kuxjenza”.
Ghax ma nifhimx kif bniedem jigdeb u jharref fuq dik u fuq l-ohra jew l-iehor u jirnexxielu jmur jpoggi rasu fuq l-imhadda u jorqod trankwill. Nahseb kollha kuxjenza safja ghandhom l-MPs taghna.
Qishom Santa Maria Goretti. Their conscience is very “selective”, apparently.
Daphne, why are some messages being rejected and others not? I wanted to leave a message in reply to A Buckle’s comment on Divorced from Reality, but it keeps getting rejected…
[Daphne – There are key words which send certain comments straight to spam. I usually find them there, though.]
If Government wants to protect and promote the family it should finance IVF procedures (irrespective of frozen bla bla bla) to married couples exclusively that’s that.
This should be a good lesson about morality to illogical thinkers.
http://richarddawkins.net/videos/623139-who-says-science-has-nothing-to-say-about-morality
Off on a tangent, but the manana mentality seems to have been adopted by our Executive and MPs . Article from today’s Times seems to prove this :
http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20110614/local/Parliament-is-out-of-touch-with-Brussels.370534
“Malta’s Parliament is also still physically absent from the EP despite being offered free office space to send a permanent representative to work closely with MEPs. Malta is the only member state with no such representative in Brussels.”
Or are they still squabbling on whom to appoint; even if there was no “free office space” there is still plenty of space left in Dar Malta or is that reserved for when we take over for six months presidency of EU in 2017 which makes our Leader of the Opposition drool at the mouth !
Daphne , in you argument you are not differentiating between ethics and religion.
Is it ethically right to freeze an embryo? Is it right to inseminate a woman with five embryos? Is it right to inseminate six ‘mothers-to-be” all at one go and have all the incubators at Mater Dei occupied with triplets and twins? What if there’s a mistake during the fertilisation or insemination, who has the right for upbringing the child? If donors are going to be considered, should the woman have health guarantees? Will donors have paternal rights?Are we going to accept sarrogate mothers?Where’s the limit?
For a cesspit plumber expressing his valid views on Xarabank or Affari Taghna the answer for these questions would be a straight “Why not?”.
For learned people who know what they’re talking about, you won’t get a straight answer because they know that they are treading in a dangerous legal and ethical minefield.
IVF needs to be regulated and we should let the experts ,in a parliamentary committee (no attendance sheet for the press!)do the legislation.
Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.
[John Schembri – IVF needs to be regulated and we should let the experts ,in a parliamentary committee (no attendance sheet for the press!)do the legislation].
I agree. I hope you agree that the experts, in this case, are definitely not MPs. So their “conscience” should play no part in the debate.
“But the hospital is contacting around 100 couples that may have been affected by the apparent labeling mix-up at the Elmwood-based in-vitro fertilization center.
According to Ochsner officials, the problem occurred at the point in the IVF process when embryos that are to be stored for later use are placed in freezers filled with liquid nitrogen, reports CBS News correspondent Mark Strassmann. They are supposed to be bar coded, color coded, and labeled so nothing can go wrong.
“There are embryos that appear to be mislabeled or others cannot be accounted for,” said Chief Medical Officer Joseph Bisordi.”
Read more: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/09/25/national/main5340450.shtml#ixzz1PH4mEpFF
I read about some lab technician who used a pipette for fertilisation without sterilising it after use.
The white couple ended up with a black and white set of twins.
Does the black child have a right to know who his real father is?
If anyone knows the whereabout of Daphne Caruana Galizia, please let her know that her bloggers missed her the last couple of days and ask her to come back.
Last time she vanished Bin Laden was caught and shot. Who knows what shenanigans she is up to this time.
Consciences on holiday: http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20110615/local/MP-misses-90-per-cent-of-sittings.370603
A parliament with a very selective “conscience”, whatever that might mean:
http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20110615/local/MP-misses-90-per-cent-of-sittings.370603